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	<title>Comments on: Why do ETF Investors do worse than Index Mutual Fund Investors?</title>
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	<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/</link>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-205517</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If my intention is to buy and hold ETFs long term, should I look at the trading volume when evaluating which ones to buy?  Does a high trading volume have an effect on returns?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If my intention is to buy and hold ETFs long term, should I look at the trading volume when evaluating which ones to buy?  Does a high trading volume have an effect on returns?</p>
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		<title>By: Canada Day LinkStuff And New Canadian Blog Spotlight</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-195781</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Day LinkStuff And New Canadian Blog Spotlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-195781</guid>
		<description>[...] Canadian Capitalist explores the question - why do ETF investors do worse than index mutual fund investors? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Canadian Capitalist explores the question &#8211; why do ETF investors do worse than index mutual fund investors? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marc  Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194551</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc  Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194551</guid>
		<description>I agree it is difficult to compare mutual fund and ETF investors. Almost all mutual fund shares are held by retail investors The last time I looked at ETF statistics the majority of shares in the large index ETF funds (which represent by far the greatest portion of all ETF shares outstanding) were held by institutional, not retail, investors. Institutions like to describe themselves as long term investors, not short-term traders. If (!) one takes them at their word, then Bogle&#039;s statistics mean there must be an awfull lot of retail ETF investors who trade in and out of ETFs. Such a use is not a great way to index invest, and I am not surprised such short term trading gives poor results.
Marc Ryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree it is difficult to compare mutual fund and ETF investors. Almost all mutual fund shares are held by retail investors The last time I looked at ETF statistics the majority of shares in the large index ETF funds (which represent by far the greatest portion of all ETF shares outstanding) were held by institutional, not retail, investors. Institutions like to describe themselves as long term investors, not short-term traders. If (!) one takes them at their word, then Bogle&#8217;s statistics mean there must be an awfull lot of retail ETF investors who trade in and out of ETFs. Such a use is not a great way to index invest, and I am not surprised such short term trading gives poor results.<br />
Marc Ryan</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Jackson Dies- End of an Era Edition- Weekly Round Up &#124; Financial Highway</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194333</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Jackson Dies- End of an Era Edition- Weekly Round Up &#124; Financial Highway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 05:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194333</guid>
		<description>[...] Canadian Capitalist looks at why ETF investors do worse than Index mutual fund investors [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Canadian Capitalist looks at why ETF investors do worse than Index mutual fund investors [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pente</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194137</link>
		<dc:creator>Pente</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194137</guid>
		<description>“So we have evidence—strong evidence—that exchange-traded funds, because of the timing that goes on in them, are not acting in the best interest of investors. Or, that investors are not acting in their own best interests, which may be a better way to put it.”

The last phrase may be a better way to put it, but it is still not exactly clear that Bogle is apparently really only refering to people trading these instruments as opposed to investing in them long-term.  This point is made later in the article, though referencing mutual funds in particular.
...
&quot;these data are telling us something that is worth knowing … that mutual fund trading is about as valuable as trading individual stocks, which is to say, not valuable at all, and harmful to your returns.”

I think that Bogle could have used less obfuscating language (pun intended) to get his point across, assuming that he is really only trying to point out that ETFs used as trading vehicles, (often) carry the same over-all dismal performance as any other instrument, if those instruments are used in an attempt to time the markets.  

At first, and even second blush this article reads like a good reason to avoid ETFs, when I think it should really be taken as a warning against trying to time the market, no matter your choice of weapon.  Assuming this is his point, and though it may be a bit simplistic, I think that exchanging words like &#039;trader&#039; and &#039;trading&#039; for &#039;investor&#039; and &#039;investing&#039; would make this clearer.  I say this based on a belief that most ppl think of the first as an active timing-(or even any other methodology) based trader, and the last as being a long(er) term buy and holder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“So we have evidence—strong evidence—that exchange-traded funds, because of the timing that goes on in them, are not acting in the best interest of investors. Or, that investors are not acting in their own best interests, which may be a better way to put it.”</p>
<p>The last phrase may be a better way to put it, but it is still not exactly clear that Bogle is apparently really only refering to people trading these instruments as opposed to investing in them long-term.  This point is made later in the article, though referencing mutual funds in particular.<br />
&#8230;<br />
&#8220;these data are telling us something that is worth knowing … that mutual fund trading is about as valuable as trading individual stocks, which is to say, not valuable at all, and harmful to your returns.”</p>
<p>I think that Bogle could have used less obfuscating language (pun intended) to get his point across, assuming that he is really only trying to point out that ETFs used as trading vehicles, (often) carry the same over-all dismal performance as any other instrument, if those instruments are used in an attempt to time the markets.  </p>
<p>At first, and even second blush this article reads like a good reason to avoid ETFs, when I think it should really be taken as a warning against trying to time the market, no matter your choice of weapon.  Assuming this is his point, and though it may be a bit simplistic, I think that exchanging words like &#8216;trader&#8217; and &#8216;trading&#8217; for &#8216;investor&#8217; and &#8216;investing&#8217; would make this clearer.  I say this based on a belief that most ppl think of the first as an active timing-(or even any other methodology) based trader, and the last as being a long(er) term buy and holder.</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194127</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194127</guid>
		<description>@Steve: Many studies show that investors as a group are very poor timers. That doesn&#039;t mean that *nobody* can time the markets but it does mean that as a group investors are very likely to remain poor timers. In theory, if you can jump in and out of stocks, you can boost your returns. In practice, very few manage to beat buy-and-hold.

@Sampson: My sense is that the vast majority of ETFs (even the broad market index funds) are used for trading. Passive investors like us are probably in the minority. US investors have no reason to buy many of these ETFs -- they can simply open an account with Vanguard and buy mutual funds for an extra 0.10% in expenses. If I were an US resident, I would go the mutual fund route given that my trading commissions are roughly on the order of 0.2% per year. Still, I&#039;m only guessing but I do think ETFs can be valuable if used properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve: Many studies show that investors as a group are very poor timers. That doesn&#8217;t mean that *nobody* can time the markets but it does mean that as a group investors are very likely to remain poor timers. In theory, if you can jump in and out of stocks, you can boost your returns. In practice, very few manage to beat buy-and-hold.</p>
<p>@Sampson: My sense is that the vast majority of ETFs (even the broad market index funds) are used for trading. Passive investors like us are probably in the minority. US investors have no reason to buy many of these ETFs &#8212; they can simply open an account with Vanguard and buy mutual funds for an extra 0.10% in expenses. If I were an US resident, I would go the mutual fund route given that my trading commissions are roughly on the order of 0.2% per year. Still, I&#8217;m only guessing but I do think ETFs can be valuable if used properly.</p>
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		<title>By: Cam Birch</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194123</link>
		<dc:creator>Cam Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194123</guid>
		<description>@Steve: Yes.  The study is not saying that ETFs underperform.  It shows that people who use ETFs do not do as well as the ETF.  AKA they buy high, sell low.  If they bought and held then they would do exactly as well as the ETF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve: Yes.  The study is not saying that ETFs underperform.  It shows that people who use ETFs do not do as well as the ETF.  AKA they buy high, sell low.  If they bought and held then they would do exactly as well as the ETF.</p>
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		<title>By: Cam Birch</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194122</link>
		<dc:creator>Cam Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194122</guid>
		<description>Sampson: My estimate of why ETF investers don&#039;t fair as well as mutual fund investers is the difference of options.  A mutual fund company has a very small number of choices, an ETF investor can easily invest in hundreds of individual stocks as well as ETFs.  If you are in a mutual fund you are most likely to stay in one or more funds, if in the market you are likely to stay in the market.

People in mutual funds tend to underperform the market.  Some studies have shown that people make changes to their investments often enough to affect performance and most people are buy high, sell low people.  It is not surprising that ETFs would have any different a showing, people move in and out as winds change and it is much easier to change ETFs than it is to change mutual funds (typically).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sampson: My estimate of why ETF investers don&#8217;t fair as well as mutual fund investers is the difference of options.  A mutual fund company has a very small number of choices, an ETF investor can easily invest in hundreds of individual stocks as well as ETFs.  If you are in a mutual fund you are most likely to stay in one or more funds, if in the market you are likely to stay in the market.</p>
<p>People in mutual funds tend to underperform the market.  Some studies have shown that people make changes to their investments often enough to affect performance and most people are buy high, sell low people.  It is not surprising that ETFs would have any different a showing, people move in and out as winds change and it is much easier to change ETFs than it is to change mutual funds (typically).</p>
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		<title>By: Sampson</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194117</link>
		<dc:creator>Sampson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194117</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious about the discrepancy among index investors buying mutual funds vs. ETF&#039;s.  You&#039;re reasoning (that there are now a variety of ETF&#039;s and people may be &#039;chasing&#039; sectors) is reasonable, but I wonder if it explains the entire difference.

Too bad investors could not be separated into a strict buy and hold category, then the returns from index tracking mutual fund vs. ETF investors compared.  Surely ETF investors should come out on top.  

Or does this suggest that DCA or some other behaviour is working to the advantage of the mutual fund investors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious about the discrepancy among index investors buying mutual funds vs. ETF&#8217;s.  You&#8217;re reasoning (that there are now a variety of ETF&#8217;s and people may be &#8216;chasing&#8217; sectors) is reasonable, but I wonder if it explains the entire difference.</p>
<p>Too bad investors could not be separated into a strict buy and hold category, then the returns from index tracking mutual fund vs. ETF investors compared.  Surely ETF investors should come out on top.  </p>
<p>Or does this suggest that DCA or some other behaviour is working to the advantage of the mutual fund investors?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/why-do-etf-investors-do-worse-than-index-mutual-fund-investors/#comment-194113</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=2577#comment-194113</guid>
		<description>Thanks FP.

What I like about ETFs is that once you confirm the trend you can go long or short. Wouldn&#039;t your returns be greater than riding the index fund long term?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks FP.</p>
<p>What I like about ETFs is that once you confirm the trend you can go long or short. Wouldn&#8217;t your returns be greater than riding the index fund long term?</p>
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