Comments on: The Sad Story of Nortel LTD Beneficiaries http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/ Helping you invest and prosper Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:54:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Should The Government Bail Out Pension Plans? http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-213063 Should The Government Bail Out Pension Plans? Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:48:18 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-213063 [...] Capitalist wrote a very interesting post yesterday highlighting the fact that there are some disabled former Nortel employees that paid into [...] [...] Capitalist wrote a very interesting post yesterday highlighting the fact that there are some disabled former Nortel employees that paid into [...]

]]> By: Canadian Capitalist http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203978 Canadian Capitalist Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:36:01 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203978 Stiffing existing bond holders to benefit DB pensions falls under the category of "robbing Peter to pay Paul". Imagine you are a Nortel unsecured creditor. You lent money to Nortel with the understanding that you'll get in line with other unsecured creditors in the event of a Nortel bankruptcy. Now you find that some creditors want to jump the queue by wanting the Government to retroactively change legislation. That doesn't sound right to me. The ends should not justify the means. Thicken My Wallet's suggestion that LTD assets as exempt from bankruptcy proceedings makes sense. Perhaps that would mean LTD beneficiaries won't require a bail out. I also have no problems with amending legislation such that <em>going forward</em> DB pension shortfalls, employee severance packages etc. will come first after assets are liquidated. Future bond holders will bear the risk of default and demand an appropriate interest rate. That's fair. Stiffing existing creditors is not. Stiffing existing bond holders to benefit DB pensions falls under the category of “robbing Peter to pay Paul”. Imagine you are a Nortel unsecured creditor. You lent money to Nortel with the understanding that you’ll get in line with other unsecured creditors in the event of a Nortel bankruptcy. Now you find that some creditors want to jump the queue by wanting the Government to retroactively change legislation. That doesn’t sound right to me. The ends should not justify the means.

Thicken My Wallet’s suggestion that LTD assets as exempt from bankruptcy proceedings makes sense. Perhaps that would mean LTD beneficiaries won’t require a bail out.

I also have no problems with amending legislation such that going forward DB pension shortfalls, employee severance packages etc. will come first after assets are liquidated. Future bond holders will bear the risk of default and demand an appropriate interest rate. That’s fair. Stiffing existing creditors is not.

]]> By: Basil2 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203976 Basil2 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:02:10 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203976 Outragous: you made a very good point and thanks for that. I was very disappointed that somebody said something about disabled should learn their lesson. I guess until you get into other's shoes you don't know. I only wish to everybody in this thread making stupid comments about free market to not end up like those unfortunate Notel employees that are on the LTD. On another note, I see the problem with free market ideology. Who proved that free markets are self correcting and always work optimally? To the best of my knowledge efficient markets are a theory (and proven wrong as recently as October 2008). In the end there must be regulation and I think 2 things came out of this thread: 1) Goverment is reponsible to regulate markets, banks and insurance industry. 2) Comanies have no place offering products such as insurance. Moving forward govermnet should regulate this better and in the meantime LTD beneficiaries should be places ahead of all other creditors in Nortel case. Outragous: you made a very good point and thanks for that. I was very disappointed that somebody said something about disabled should learn their lesson. I guess until you get into other’s shoes you don’t know. I only wish to everybody in this thread making stupid comments about free market to not end up like those unfortunate Notel employees that are on the LTD.

On another note, I see the problem with free market ideology. Who proved that free markets are self correcting and always work optimally? To the best of my knowledge efficient markets are a theory (and proven wrong as recently as October 2008).

In the end there must be regulation and I think 2 things came out of this thread:

1) Goverment is reponsible to regulate markets, banks and insurance industry.

2) Comanies have no place offering products such as insurance. Moving forward govermnet should regulate this better and in the meantime LTD beneficiaries should be places ahead of all other creditors in Nortel case.

]]> By: Outrageous http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203912 Outrageous Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:09:14 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203912 Why are you people making wild assumptions and continuing to rant about a bail-out when; It is important to understand that current Nortel LTD and pensioners that are affected are NOT looking for a bailout. The Federal bankruptcy laws need to be amended so that pensioners and those on LTD are not placed down in the long line-up of unsecured creditors but paid first upon liquidation. The public will be happy to note that this will also keep those same people off of welfare and EI Also, the argument about punishing children and teenagers is specious at best. When are those people who are caught in this on LTD supposed to learn this for? They can no-longer ever work and are forever rendered uninsurable due to their condition. Is it re-incarnation being brought into this and that they will now learn a lesson and apply in their next life? Some comments literally sound like no-brains. Some sound like no heart either. Very inhumane. Are preople aware of how lucky anyone is to have their health? The saying goes 'at least you have your health' well these people can't say that. This comment is worth repeating; I certainly do not have an issue of Nortel disabled having a priority claim on Nortel’s cash, over say other creditors – bondholders for example have to accept the risk and can’t claim ignorance Why are you people making wild assumptions and continuing to rant about a bail-out when;

It is important to understand that current Nortel LTD and pensioners that are affected are NOT looking for a bailout. The Federal bankruptcy laws need to be amended so that pensioners and those on LTD are not placed down in the long line-up of unsecured creditors but paid first upon liquidation. The public will be happy to note that this will also keep those same people off of welfare and EI

Also, the argument about punishing children and teenagers is specious at best.

When are those people who are caught in this on LTD supposed to
learn this for? They can no-longer ever work and are forever rendered uninsurable due to their condition. Is it re-incarnation being brought into this and that they will now learn a lesson and apply in their next life?

Some comments literally sound like no-brains. Some sound like no heart either. Very inhumane. Are preople aware of how lucky anyone is to have their health? The saying goes ‘at least you have your health’ well these people can’t say that.

This comment is worth repeating;
I certainly do not have an issue of Nortel disabled having a priority claim on Nortel’s cash, over say other creditors – bondholders for example have to accept the risk and can’t claim ignorance

]]> By: Nortel Disabled http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203871 Nortel Disabled Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:31:48 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203871 A Look at Nortel’s Asset Sales http://www.allaboutnortel.com/2009/10/15/a-look-at-nortels-asset-sales/ Total Cash : ~8 BILLION. A Look at Nortel’s Asset Sales

http://www.allaboutnortel.com/2009/10/15/a-look-at-nortels-asset-sales/

Total Cash : ~8 BILLION.

]]> By: Nortel Disabled http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203870 Nortel Disabled Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:21:07 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203870 Finally, I know my dept most people had E.Eng + MBA so we tend to read documents inside and out and are well educated. I have all of my benefits manuals scanned and on-line and there is NO mention of self insured anywhere. In fact I asked around and most people have no idea what self insured or ASO means? DO people have to consult with benefits lawyers to understand their benefits package? Our pay stubs were from Sunlife insurance, our tax receipts sunlife insurance, our benefits paid by sunlife insurance. We found out after bankruptcy from lawyer that we are not insured? We asked nortel to show where it says that and no response. They don't have to response as protected by bankruptcy laws. I suggest people contact their Member of Parliament and ask that BIA be amended so that "YOUR" benefits , Pensions and severance packages get priority over greedy lawyers,accountants and consults who are eating away at 6- 8 BIllion in case like vultures. Even in bankruptcy nortel was able to pay hits Manages 40 Million in bonus payments, 200-300 in lawyers fee's and I think another 300 million in consultant fees'. It is basically vultures alley and once eaten the cost of disabilty will be tossed to the tax payer. Thanks and I hope this helps people understand the true situation we are in. Finally, I know my dept most people had E.Eng + MBA so we tend to read documents inside and out and are well educated. I have all of my benefits manuals scanned and on-line and there is NO mention of self insured anywhere. In fact I asked around and most people have no idea what self insured or ASO means? DO people have to consult with benefits lawyers to understand their benefits package? Our pay stubs were from Sunlife insurance, our tax receipts sunlife insurance, our benefits paid by sunlife insurance. We found out after bankruptcy from lawyer that we are not insured? We asked nortel to show where it says that and no response. They don’t have to response as protected by bankruptcy laws. I suggest people contact their Member of Parliament and ask that BIA be amended so that
“YOUR” benefits , Pensions and severance packages get priority over greedy lawyers,accountants and consults who are eating away at 6- 8 BIllion in case like vultures. Even in bankruptcy nortel was able to pay hits Manages 40 Million in bonus payments, 200-300 in lawyers fee’s and I think another 300 million in consultant fees’. It is basically vultures alley and once eaten the cost of disabilty will be tossed to the tax payer. Thanks and I hope this helps people understand the true situation we are in.

]]> By: Nortel Disabled http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203857 Nortel Disabled Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:59:27 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203857 What is even more frustration is the fact the fact that EVEN if your company misrepresents your benefits you cannot take legal action as the company under bankruptcy is insolvent and protected by court order. The fact also is employees paid in benefits plan and were told if you are disabled your benefits are guaranteed untill 65 ( as long as you prove medically you are disabled). This is the reason why we did not get supplementary health insurance outside of company. We are trying to change this by pressing on Gov't to change the bankruptcy laws so that people who were "misrepresented" should be first in line and not bonus to CEO's . So far all parties are on our side except the conservative government. If you are in private plan ( ie non-gov't) you should be aware of bankruptcy laws and realize that : 1. Your pension will be reduced by hugh amount, you are now part of a creditor pool 2. Your benefits if you are disabled might be cut off ( even if there are misrepresentation) as company is insolvent and protected by court order. Your Health and welfare fund is now part of creditor pool 3. The is no government legislation provincial or Federally to protect you in bankrupcy ( U.K, US.A have protection) What is even more frustration is the fact the fact that EVEN if your
company misrepresents your benefits you cannot take legal action
as the company under bankruptcy is insolvent and protected by court order.
The fact also is employees paid in benefits plan and were told if you are
disabled your benefits are guaranteed untill 65 ( as long as you prove medically
you are disabled). This is the reason why we did not get supplementary health insurance outside
of company. We are trying to change this by pressing on Gov’t to change the bankruptcy laws
so that people who were “misrepresented” should be first in line and not bonus to
CEO’s . So far all parties are on our side except the conservative government. If you are in private plan ( ie non-gov’t) you should be aware of bankruptcy laws and realize that :

1. Your pension will be reduced by hugh amount, you are now part of a creditor pool
2. Your benefits if you are disabled might be cut off ( even if there are misrepresentation) as
company is insolvent and protected by court order. Your Health and welfare fund is now part of creditor pool
3. The is no government legislation provincial or Federally to protect you in bankrupcy (
U.K, US.A have protection)

]]> By: Rob http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203812 Rob Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:22:19 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203812 I certainly do not have an issue of Nortel disabled having a priority claim on Nortel's cash, over say other creditors - bondholders for example have to accept the risk and can't claim ignorance but the comments by CC was that the government should make good on Nortel's debt in this regard - and that started the 30 odd comments thanks for clarifying - it is an interesting issue that I am afraid will happen more in the future I certainly do not have an issue of Nortel disabled having a priority claim on Nortel’s cash, over say other creditors – bondholders for example have to accept the risk and can’t claim ignorance

but the comments by CC was that the government should make good on Nortel’s debt in this regard – and that started the 30 odd comments

thanks for clarifying – it is an interesting issue that I am afraid will happen more in the future

]]> By: Nortel Disabled http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203780 Nortel Disabled Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:10:15 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203780 HEre is good article to : read:http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Nortel+pensioners+workers+need+action+become+social+burden/2157153/story.html JUst to inform people as well you company could add a small print tomorrow about ASO on a 100 page benefit manual and then file for Bankruptcy. How your benefits are not insured. East as that if you can belive it. You cannot sue them for misinformation as they are protected by CCAA rules. HEre is good article to :

read:http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Nortel+pensioners+workers+need+action+become+social+burden/2157153/story.html

JUst to inform people as well you company could add a small print tomorrow about ASO on a 100 page benefit manual and then file for Bankruptcy. How your benefits are not insured. East as that if you can belive it.

You cannot sue them for misinformation as they are protected by CCAA rules.

]]> By: Nortel Disabled http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/the-sad-story-of-nortel-ltd-beneficiaries/#comment-203779 Nortel Disabled Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:02:30 +0000 http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3109#comment-203779 NOrtel currently have 6-8 Billion in cash but unless there is government legislation to put pressure on to pay disabled people they stand to loose 90% of their benefits . This is not a BAIL-OUT as people think. There is nothing to be paid by tax payers. In fact by putting in legislation tax payers will save millions because all of these people who will be cut from Nortel/sunlife disability plan will end up transferred to gov't plans ( ie , cpp disability, ODSP, Trillium, Welfare). Nortel knows this and is using the CCAA laws to transfer its obligation to you the tax payer. The 6-8 Billion will end up mostly paying for Lawyers, Accounts and consultants and you the tax payer will pay the bill for all medical and benefits for 409 disabled people. Just think of the cost --I would say on average just medical costs will be 10k x 409 x 30 years = 122 million, CPP disability benefits ( we will all get as cut off from nortel plan) 12k x 409 x 30= 147 Million. Add to this welfare and other misc cost and a whopping 1/2 billion will be transferred to you the tax payer of Canada.I hope that sheds some light on this issue which could impact every canadian. If your company goes bankrupt you can kiss your severance, good chuck of your pension and if you are on disability of any sort --good bye. we are trying to change this and if you want to read more you can check here. This is not bail-out but justice to make Nortel live up to its obligations to its employee's .The same should be done for every company so they cannot hide behind misinformation and use CCAA laws to get away. They tax payers in fact save billions by pushing for this legistlation. http://protectourtomorrow.com/ NOrtel currently have 6-8 Billion in cash but unless there is government legislation to put pressure on to pay disabled people they stand to loose 90% of their benefits . This is not a BAIL-OUT as people think. There is nothing to be paid by tax payers. In fact by putting in legislation tax payers will save millions because all of these people who will be cut from Nortel/sunlife disability plan will end up transferred to gov’t plans ( ie , cpp disability, ODSP, Trillium, Welfare). Nortel knows this and is using the CCAA laws to transfer its obligation to you the tax payer. The 6-8 Billion will end up mostly paying for Lawyers, Accounts and consultants and you the tax payer will pay the bill for all medical and benefits for 409 disabled people. Just think of the cost –I would say on average just medical costs will be 10k x 409 x 30 years = 122 million, CPP disability benefits ( we will all get as cut off from nortel plan) 12k x 409 x 30= 147 Million. Add to this welfare and other misc cost and a whopping 1/2 billion will be transferred to you the tax payer of Canada.I hope that sheds some light on this issue which could impact every canadian. If your company goes bankrupt you can kiss your severance, good chuck of your pension and if you are on disability of any sort –good bye.

we are trying to change this and if you want to read more you can check here. This is not bail-out but justice to make Nortel live up to its obligations to its employee’s .The same should be done for every company so they cannot hide behind misinformation and use CCAA laws to get away. They tax payers in fact save billions by pushing for this legistlation.

http://protectourtomorrow.com/

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