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	<title>Comments on: So much for bear market outperformance</title>
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		<title>By: Dale Rathgeber</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169849</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Rathgeber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169849</guid>
		<description>CC and other indexers.   One of the reasons for my recent interest in the blog world is to attempt to ascertain the objections of good-thinking investors to my momentum strategy. As far as I can tell, you and your frequent commentators are some of the best around.  (You are also providing a valuable service to Do-it-yourselfers, and indeed all investors).

 I understand your  statistical  objection that my 7 years of good performance could merely be good luck. I&#039;ll just have to live with that objection until more years pass.

However,  I would appreciate your further comments regarding your objection that my momentum philosophy is a form of &quot;market timing&quot;, and all the negativity that such a label connotes.  Does it help clarify  the debate by acknowledging that there is no one definition of &quot;market timing&quot;,  and that we should really focuss on the extent/and or degree to which almost all investors engage in &quot;market timing&quot; -- buying, and then selling. That is,  the issue is really one of frequency -- when we turn-over our account too often we are thought to be gambling, especially if we incurr trading costs/commissions. But if we don&#039;t &quot;excessively&quot; turn-over our account -- and don&#039;t incurr excessive commissions -- we are not &quot;market timers&quot; in the most extreme connotation, but are more likely to be thouhgt of as prudent investors. Indexers are at one end of the market-timing continuum --(most will sell something eventually)-- and day traders are at the other end of the continuum.

To use an everyday analogy -- &quot;market timing&quot;  could be considered akin to alcohol consumption. -- Too much, and too frequent, can become a problem, but controlled &quot;socially responsible&quot; drinking is acceptable to most reasonable people, whether or not they partake. Indexers arre near tea-totallers; many day traders have problem; and October Strategists are somewhere in between. Thus, we are not just throwing labels around -- &quot;You&#039;re a market timer / No I am not&quot; --but are really debating the more meaningul concepts -- frequency, costs, and probability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CC and other indexers.   One of the reasons for my recent interest in the blog world is to attempt to ascertain the objections of good-thinking investors to my momentum strategy. As far as I can tell, you and your frequent commentators are some of the best around.  (You are also providing a valuable service to Do-it-yourselfers, and indeed all investors).</p>
<p> I understand your  statistical  objection that my 7 years of good performance could merely be good luck. I&#8217;ll just have to live with that objection until more years pass.</p>
<p>However,  I would appreciate your further comments regarding your objection that my momentum philosophy is a form of &#8220;market timing&#8221;, and all the negativity that such a label connotes.  Does it help clarify  the debate by acknowledging that there is no one definition of &#8220;market timing&#8221;,  and that we should really focuss on the extent/and or degree to which almost all investors engage in &#8220;market timing&#8221; &#8212; buying, and then selling. That is,  the issue is really one of frequency &#8212; when we turn-over our account too often we are thought to be gambling, especially if we incurr trading costs/commissions. But if we don&#8217;t &#8220;excessively&#8221; turn-over our account &#8212; and don&#8217;t incurr excessive commissions &#8212; we are not &#8220;market timers&#8221; in the most extreme connotation, but are more likely to be thouhgt of as prudent investors. Indexers are at one end of the market-timing continuum &#8211;(most will sell something eventually)&#8211; and day traders are at the other end of the continuum.</p>
<p>To use an everyday analogy &#8212; &#8220;market timing&#8221;  could be considered akin to alcohol consumption. &#8212; Too much, and too frequent, can become a problem, but controlled &#8220;socially responsible&#8221; drinking is acceptable to most reasonable people, whether or not they partake. Indexers arre near tea-totallers; many day traders have problem; and October Strategists are somewhere in between. Thus, we are not just throwing labels around &#8212; &#8220;You&#8217;re a market timer / No I am not&#8221; &#8211;but are really debating the more meaningul concepts &#8212; frequency, costs, and probability.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Rathgeber</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169433</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Rathgeber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169433</guid>
		<description>Econ Student. Great! Can you leave your phone #on my email attched to my website and some convenient times to discuss by telephone a system to ensure that I don&#039;t run afoul of the Securities Commissions&#039; Newsletter-Advisory rules. In fact, if your new blog could be interpreted as &quot;advice&quot; , you too will probably want to be careful. But I have some ideas about delayed reporting to the outside world--(but immediate confidential reporting to eachother)-- which should keep us both onside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Econ Student. Great! Can you leave your phone #on my email attched to my website and some convenient times to discuss by telephone a system to ensure that I don&#8217;t run afoul of the Securities Commissions&#8217; Newsletter-Advisory rules. In fact, if your new blog could be interpreted as &#8220;advice&#8221; , you too will probably want to be careful. But I have some ideas about delayed reporting to the outside world&#8211;(but immediate confidential reporting to eachother)&#8211; which should keep us both onside.</p>
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		<title>By: NN</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169424</link>
		<dc:creator>NN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169424</guid>
		<description>EconStudent - I remeber a time when I had very similar philosophies to yours, believing that with enough knowledge I could somehow outsmart the market. I even started studying statistics to get the necessary exposure to time series analysis. Luckily, I stumbled on the empyrical evidence that such systems just doesn&#039;t work in the long term, and that a consistently holding the market will get you ahead of 90% of investors. The statistics came in handy though, like being able to assure Dale that a 7-year outperformance is nothing special, and that the number of people who outperform the market is exactly the number probabilistically expected to do so. Value stocks outperform Growth stocks, except for 10-15 year periods where the trend is reversed etc. etc. 

Regarding your trading system though - I have had a look at the Shiller data mentioned previously on CC, and found that an allocation to (US) equities decreasing linearly from 100% at a PE of ~17.5 to 0% at a PE of ~35 would have beaten the market for the period from 1871 to present. I believe the observation to be borderline interesting, you might feel different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EconStudent &#8211; I remeber a time when I had very similar philosophies to yours, believing that with enough knowledge I could somehow outsmart the market. I even started studying statistics to get the necessary exposure to time series analysis. Luckily, I stumbled on the empyrical evidence that such systems just doesn&#8217;t work in the long term, and that a consistently holding the market will get you ahead of 90% of investors. The statistics came in handy though, like being able to assure Dale that a 7-year outperformance is nothing special, and that the number of people who outperform the market is exactly the number probabilistically expected to do so. Value stocks outperform Growth stocks, except for 10-15 year periods where the trend is reversed etc. etc. </p>
<p>Regarding your trading system though &#8211; I have had a look at the Shiller data mentioned previously on CC, and found that an allocation to (US) equities decreasing linearly from 100% at a PE of ~17.5 to 0% at a PE of ~35 would have beaten the market for the period from 1871 to present. I believe the observation to be borderline interesting, you might feel different.</p>
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		<title>By: EconStudent</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169420</link>
		<dc:creator>EconStudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169420</guid>
		<description>Dale: I will take your challenge.  I am going to start my financial blog in January 2009. I need to set up my TSFA account and do more research to formulate an &quot;actively&quot; rebalanced portfolio to compete with yours. I will contact you through The October Strategy website, once I have everything set up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale: I will take your challenge.  I am going to start my financial blog in January 2009. I need to set up my TSFA account and do more research to formulate an &#8220;actively&#8221; rebalanced portfolio to compete with yours. I will contact you through The October Strategy website, once I have everything set up.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Rathgeber</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169376</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Rathgeber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169376</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that based on CC and Zop&#039;s defintion of &quot;market timing&quot;,  every investor who ever sells anything would be a &quot;market timer&quot;.

Zop was of the view that a 100% equiy strategy is dangerous.  I agree. I don&#039;t recommend that anyone use the October Strategy (or equities)  for 100% of their nest egg, especially as they near, or achieve retirement. See&quot; The Risk of Losses; Get Some Ultra Safe investments&quot; on my web-site. 

It is true that my strategy pays MERs as a necessary evil for diversification,  and no trading costs. We do, however, try to pick lower cost funds and index funds whenever possible. ETFs are a possible new alternative for us.

As to my 7 year lucky streak, would anyone accept the challenge of publically comparing returns on a go- forward basis? (I would have to be careful to comply with the Securities Commissions&#039; newsleter rules, but I am sure that I can find a way to do so). 

p.s. my secretary is now my typist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that based on CC and Zop&#8217;s defintion of &#8220;market timing&#8221;,  every investor who ever sells anything would be a &#8220;market timer&#8221;.</p>
<p>Zop was of the view that a 100% equiy strategy is dangerous.  I agree. I don&#8217;t recommend that anyone use the October Strategy (or equities)  for 100% of their nest egg, especially as they near, or achieve retirement. See&#8221; The Risk of Losses; Get Some Ultra Safe investments&#8221; on my web-site. </p>
<p>It is true that my strategy pays MERs as a necessary evil for diversification,  and no trading costs. We do, however, try to pick lower cost funds and index funds whenever possible. ETFs are a possible new alternative for us.</p>
<p>As to my 7 year lucky streak, would anyone accept the challenge of publically comparing returns on a go- forward basis? (I would have to be careful to comply with the Securities Commissions&#8217; newsleter rules, but I am sure that I can find a way to do so). </p>
<p>p.s. my secretary is now my typist.</p>
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		<title>By: 2op mike</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169372</link>
		<dc:creator>2op mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169372</guid>
		<description>Dale, a last comment. I think its great that people try different methods of investing. I believe most people need a core and explore to provide a stable base strategy that reflects the best economic thought. The Modern Portfolio Theory has several Nobel winners behind the approach so seems the best suited to the core strategy. As to the explore part, well I think that&#039;s needed to give people the challenge/interest/thrill they often seek from hunting for alpha. Who knows, your approach might pay off for a small higher risk bet on the &quot;explore&quot; side. Suggesting that it be a core holding is a show of your confidence but not suitable for most in my view. Best of luck with it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, a last comment. I think its great that people try different methods of investing. I believe most people need a core and explore to provide a stable base strategy that reflects the best economic thought. The Modern Portfolio Theory has several Nobel winners behind the approach so seems the best suited to the core strategy. As to the explore part, well I think that&#8217;s needed to give people the challenge/interest/thrill they often seek from hunting for alpha. Who knows, your approach might pay off for a small higher risk bet on the &#8220;explore&#8221; side. Suggesting that it be a core holding is a show of your confidence but not suitable for most in my view. Best of luck with it!</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169371</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169371</guid>
		<description>Dale: Like mike points out, some of the funds in your sample newsletter posted on your website have high MERs. You&#039;ll have to first overcome the MER simply to break-even with a benchmark. Just because the MERs are hidden and an investor does not directly pay it, doesn&#039;t mean the fees aren&#039;t there.

Also like mike points out, by holding some &quot;hot&quot; funds but not others, you are shifting asset allocations around in addition to your seasonal strategy. That&#039;s text book market timing. This doesn&#039;t mean that there will be periods when out performance is possible simply due to luck but I&#039;ll be very surprised if your strategy turns out to be a winning one over the long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale: Like mike points out, some of the funds in your sample newsletter posted on your website have high MERs. You&#8217;ll have to first overcome the MER simply to break-even with a benchmark. Just because the MERs are hidden and an investor does not directly pay it, doesn&#8217;t mean the fees aren&#8217;t there.</p>
<p>Also like mike points out, by holding some &#8220;hot&#8221; funds but not others, you are shifting asset allocations around in addition to your seasonal strategy. That&#8217;s text book market timing. This doesn&#8217;t mean that there will be periods when out performance is possible simply due to luck but I&#8217;ll be very surprised if your strategy turns out to be a winning one over the long term.</p>
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		<title>By: 2op mike</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169369</link>
		<dc:creator>2op mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169369</guid>
		<description>Dale, last time I checked MF&#039;s have MER&#039;s. Also a strategy of 100% equity investing creates a risk level that is completely unacceptable to anybody but either a billionnaire (so Warren can do it if he likes) or a gambler in my opinion.
As to not market timing, you recommend people stay with &quot;hot funds&quot; for 100+ days then rebalance. Sounds like timing to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, last time I checked MF&#8217;s have MER&#8217;s. Also a strategy of 100% equity investing creates a risk level that is completely unacceptable to anybody but either a billionnaire (so Warren can do it if he likes) or a gambler in my opinion.<br />
As to not market timing, you recommend people stay with &#8220;hot funds&#8221; for 100+ days then rebalance. Sounds like timing to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Rathgeber</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169367</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Rathgeber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169367</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t try to &quot;time the market&quot;; that is, jump in when we think it will be hot, and jump out when we think it might fall. We are fully invested except for Sept/Oct. Our system is not &quot;high fee&quot;. If we use a discount broker like TD waterhouse or BMO online and hold our funds for 90 days, we pay ZERO in fees/comsiions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t try to &#8220;time the market&#8221;; that is, jump in when we think it will be hot, and jump out when we think it might fall. We are fully invested except for Sept/Oct. Our system is not &#8220;high fee&#8221;. If we use a discount broker like TD waterhouse or BMO online and hold our funds for 90 days, we pay ZERO in fees/comsiions.</p>
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		<title>By: 2op mike</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/so-much-for-bear-market-outperformance/#comment-169361</link>
		<dc:creator>2op mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=1464#comment-169361</guid>
		<description>I try to limit my gambling to casinos. To quote Warren Buffet &quot;if you do not want to own it for 10 years then don&#039;t own it for 10 minutes&quot;.

Bill.....back testing on market timing schemes always looks good. In fact it is a high cost, high trade volume, high maintenance strategy that works in every year except those years it does not work. Here is my suggestion, keep it to less than 10% of your investment portfolio and have fun with it. That way when it flops you are educated but not broke!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try to limit my gambling to casinos. To quote Warren Buffet &#8220;if you do not want to own it for 10 years then don&#8217;t own it for 10 minutes&#8221;.</p>
<p>Bill&#8230;..back testing on market timing schemes always looks good. In fact it is a high cost, high trade volume, high maintenance strategy that works in every year except those years it does not work. Here is my suggestion, keep it to less than 10% of your investment portfolio and have fun with it. That way when it flops you are educated but not broke!</p>
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