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moneysense.ca, 7/07/10
From the Archives: Why invest your own money?
[Editor's note: I wrote this post more than two years back in response to a Globe and Mail column questioning whether DIY investors have the skills to invest on their own. I still think almost anyone can learn to invest on their own. It is not always easy but it is definitely simple.]
In his latest column in Report on Business, sleuth investor Avner Mandelman asks DIY investors: “you don’t wear suits you sewed yourself, or shoes you cobbled yourself, or feed your family bread you baked yourself, so why would you try to invest your family’s assets by yourself?” and somewhat self-servingly suggests hiring a professional:
So once again, how much of your investing should you do yourself? I had better step carefully here because it would sound self-serving – I am, after all, in the biz of managing OPM (other people’s money) – but I’ll say it plain: Just as you occasionally can bake your own bread for fun but would not think of doing it on a regular basis (not if you want to have time for work), so you should not think of investing all your funds yourself.
Let’s assume you can earn 2 to 3 per cent a year better than the pros, long term. It is very difficult, but let’s assume. On a $100,000 investment, that’s $2,000 to $3,000 a year. For the same amount of time you put in, couldn’t you make more in your own business?
While you can easily counter that with – you brush your own teeth, take out your own garbage or pay your own bills, so why not invest your own money – there is an excellent reason: the consistent failure of professional money management in providing market beating returns to retail investors. A 2000 paper titled How well have taxable investors been served in the 1980s and 1990s? shows the magnitude of this failure – over the ten-year period ending in 1998, only 14% of mutual funds outperformed the Vanguard 500 before taxes. Only 5% outperformed over fifteen years and a more respectable 22% beat the index fund over twenty years. These figures do not reflect survivorship bias.
Canadian fans of active funds contend that the U.S. market is “more efficient” and the Canadian experience is different (without any studies to back their claim). The S&P Indices versus Active Fund Scorecard (SPIVA) record shows how flimsy the claim is: the percentage of mutual funds beating the TSX Composite index over a 5-year period was 42% in 2004, 31% in 2005, 11% in 2006 and 8.5% in 2007. The early record looks better than it actually is due to the massive weighting of Nortel. Compared to the TSX Capped Composite index (which an investor can easily track using XIC) the record over the same time periods is 23%, 26%, 10% and 8.5% respectively.
A more apt question a DIY investor could ask a professional money manager would be: if I visited my barber, asked for a haircut and came away with a shaved head and lost my shirt in the process and paid for the privilege nonetheless, why wouldn’t I cut my own hair?
moneysense.ca, 7/07/10









I agree with avner but your counter arguements slaughter his.
I understand the 15 year data, etc. Yet I have never met ANYONE who has held an index for 15 years. If someone can prove they have done only this for 15 years using statements, I will donate $100 to the charity of their choice.
In a similar manner, I would also contend that most or all DIY investors underperformed the index as well – and I think this is the spirit behind Avner’s statements.
The charity offer is real and I am happy to pay up – I’d be surprised if I didn’t have to, but it will be telling if I don’t
For clarity, this is a single $100 charity offer only to the first person who proves it. Also if they held low fee index mutual funds or Tips and then switched to ETFs once these were more available, that is fine too.
Haha – what a great post.
Another argument is the payoff. If I sew my own suits, then I might save $500 every 10 years.
If I do my own investing then I might save $5000 per year (and get the same results).
His argument only applies to active investors who have to spend a lot of time managing their portfolio. But those people should switch to passive investing rather than hire someone.
The other difference is that with the internet, it is analogous to having something bring the cloth to your front door, provide you with needles and thread, show you how to cut using a template, show you how to sew and what common mistakes to avoid.
If someone actually provided that access to materials and training for suit making, of course I would make my own suits too!
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Canadian Capitalist. Canadian Capitalist said: New Blog Post: From the Archives: Why invest your own money? http://bit.ly/afvJtj [...]
I find it interesting that he mentions the percentage of funds that outperform the index, but doesn’t mention if they outperformed the index sufficiently to compensate for the higher costs of using a money manager. Further, His assumption that a DIY investor would have to outperform the pros by 2-3% to justify being a DIY investor is ridiculous. I don’t have to outperform the pros, I only have to match or even trail them slightly in order to make it worthwile, since the managment fees go to me instead of them.
He also assumes that one is trying to ‘beat’ the market. If all I’m trying to do is match market return (minus a small tracking error), paying the higher cost of active management to accomplish the same goal that passive managment would give is just foolish. Further, if I use a DIY passive approach, the demands on my time are inconsequential or at least similar to doing due diligence on researching funds to put my money. I would contend that it would take more time to do due diligence on funds than it does on broad based index ETFs (or low cost index funds). If I then take the time difference spent on researching active management and use it to work more, I will almost guarantee a better return than I could get with using a professional money manager.
(For the record, my family does bake its own bread on a regular basis, and having a trained seamstress in-house means that if she wanted to, I could have my own suit sewed at home too!)
The bit about brushing your own teeth is funny. It’s interesting how simple investing can be using indexing, but people fret and watch results and complicate things by trying something new. (I include myself as having these tendencies.) Ironically, the more action investors take, the less money they make, on average.
I heard an interview this morning where two “economists” who were actually salesmen made numerous market predictions and stressed the importance of taking action in today’s type of markets to protect your retirement. It was all very vague. Listeners couldn’t be faulted for feeling like they should contact these guys to take the unspecified actions. One of the best marketing tools for these guys is trying to induce unfocused worry.
@Rob: I don’t qualify yet. It was only in late 2007 that I became almost fully indexed but in my defense, I’ve been investing for 10 or 11 years and I’ve seen the error of my ways early. Also, for the record, this post is a criticism of professional investors as a group, not Mr. Mandelman or any other individual manager. I hope you will agree that the investment business as a whole, while run by professionals, is a zero-sum game.
@Mike: Being an engineer like you, I can’t remember the last time I wore a suit. So, yes $500 every 10 years sounds about right. After all, a well-dressed engineer has no credibility, as Dilbert is fond of saying.
@Preet: And with the number of suits, you probably go through, it will likely even be worthwhile for you!
@AKA: Excellent point. It’s one of the paradoxes of both money management and financial planning. There are such a small percentage of competent professionals (say 1 in 10) that you need some financial knowledge to find these diamonds in the rough. Then again, if you have the financial knowledge, you have the basic tools to become a DIYer.
Oh wow it has been two years since this post?? It definitely struck a note with me. I’ve been DIY’er ever since.
Seems to me a better comparison would be buying a suit yourself vs. paying someone to buy it for you.
I prefer to buy it myself, but I suppose some people are too busy and therefore have personal shoppers.
@Michael James: Decades ago Graham concluded that almost any investor can easily become a defensive investor by simply holding a representative basket of stocks and bonds (no index fund then). Of course, enterprising investors can try to obtain extra returns but that isn’t an easy path. Especially today when so many professional investors are trying to beat each other.
Personally, I bake my own bread and manage my own dough. Last year I even took my own appendix out. I’ve been a happy camper ever since!
When you manage someone’s money, there is a huge temptation for you to dip into the account (eg by churning). Money is easily transferable from my account to yours. Not so with suits, breads and apendices. Money is not like other “things.”
CC – I agree that investing is a zero sum game, and would go further to suggest that it is really a ‘less-than-zero’ sum game because of frictional costs such as fees, taxes, etc. Anyone that can’t admit this would not be credible in my opinion.
That said, From my experience, it isn’t evenly split with 50% winners and 50% losers… or it would be if markets and people were efficent and rational. No data whatsoever to back this up, but I think it would be closer to about 85% of investors lose money and only 15% make money. (And yes, fees play a role here in these numbers)
At the same time I think it is very easy to strip out the bulk of crappy managers (closet indexers, high fees, non-concentrated portfolios, too high a turnover, no co-investment by management, etc) and avoid these active management performance averages that are thrown about by passive devotees.
It is hard for some to believe but there are some really good investors out there. Professional and DIYers
Passive investing greatest attribute is that it is ideal for mathematical modeling. This makes it a really strong theory and I am glad it is getting more popular (it will help weed out the crappy active managers) .
But there is theory and how something works in practice. I firmly believe that the vast majority of so-called passive investors attempting to practice this great theory are greatly underperforming their own indexes.
Not one comment other than CCs to take me up on my charity offer. I really thought there would be one.
Hahaha!!! This is a hilarious post!!! I fit into the analogy of the guy who went to the barber for a cut and got a shaved head (or worse – a reverse mohawk) and lost my shirt while paying for the privilege!!!
When I first started in the working world, I left all of my investing up to the so-called “professionals”. I watched my investments and saw that when the market went down, my investments went down. And when the markets went up, my investments went down further. And when the markets shot up, my investments broke even or went up slightly. I figured at that rate, I’ll be able to retire when I’m in the grave!
I think the problem with professional money managers is specifically that they treat it as “other people’s money”. They take unnecessary risks, go with the herd and service charge or management expense you to death for it! Or worse – they put money into stuff that results in more money in their pockets, regardless of how crappy of an investment it is!
Yep, my past experience has made me as anti- “industry” and jaded as anybody can possibly be! These days I really don’t care if I underperform the index as long as it was MY decision and MY mistake.
Rob, I only started buying ETFs in 2007 as well – I’ll call you in about 12 years?
[...] Yesterday’s post looked at a somewhat self-serving suggestion from a money manager that investors would be better off hiring a professional to do their investing for them. One of the problems with such a suggestion is that you might end up with someone like Bill Miller. You don’t hear much about Mr. Miller these days but a few years back Mr. Miller was widely feted in the business press for beating the S&P 500 for 15 consecutive years from 1991 until 2005. [...]
“Let’s assume you can earn 2 to 3 per cent a year better than the pros, long term. It is very difficult, but let’s assume. On a $100,000 investment, that’s $2,000 to $3,000 a year. For the same amount of time you put in, couldn’t you make more in your own business?”
That’s such a load of crap. That 2-3%(not by outperforming as he incorrectly submits but rather by bypassing the 2-3% in fees) makes a massive difference over an investor’s lifespan due to compounding interest. Depending on the time horizon and the returns achieved that’s 40 to 70% of your potential retirement funds dissappearing into the professionals’ pockets. Last but not least, passive investing requires very little time and the knowledge that you are taking the proper steps to securing your financial future is very gratifying. That peace of mind alone is almost worth as much as the added funds …. well almost.
CC, can’t recall if you’ve done a post on the devastating effects fees have on longterm results with accompanying charts. You very likely have in the early days of this blog. For me, seeing charts of the massive longterm costs of our world leading mutual fund fees is what got me motivated to take over my investments and educate myself several years ago. I can’t recall exactly where I first saw those charts, have seen so many in books since. If such a post exists, I could use the link. If not, it might be a good topic for a future post, I know I’d link to it a lot. I don’t think the average mutual fund investor has a clue about the magnitude of the impact this “2-3%” has on their portfolio by the time they retire(and beyond).
[...] Capitalist republished a great post on why you should invest your own money. Well worth the [...]
when you choose which stocks to buy, you are investing in buisnesses that invest your money,
your not really investing your money yourself,
you are merely choosing which investment to buy, they same way you choose which bread to buy,
you don’t make the bread yourself, the same way you are not running the company you invest in.
@Rob: I have no doubt at all that skilled investors exist. I’m not so sure it is easy to identify them in advance. Yes, you can put the odds in your favour by weeding out managers who are unlikely to succeed. It’s just that even after you do all that, all you’ve done is put odds in your favour.
http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/how-to-pick-a-winning-mutual-fund/
Still, I agree with you that emotional traps await all investors, active or passive. IMO, active investors have an additional hurdle — they should have confidence in their manager even when they occasionally underperform the market averages.
@Phil: I haven’t had much experience with active funds. About the only mutual fund I owned was the TD Science and Technology Fund. Let’s just say it was a stinker — mainly because the tech sector itself crashed and burned but the fund even trailed the averages. I’m glad I got out of it early. The other fund I owned was a Labour Sponsored Fund. It was a stinker as well. And just to be clear, both funds were clear mistakes on my part as well.
@GSP: I’ll look up the archives for a post on investing costs. If not, I’ll revisit this topic in a future post. I suppose like warning labels on smokes, warnings on investing costs cannot be made often enough.
Great post…I wonder though, is there a dollar value above which you (and all the other DIYers) would recommend NOT doing it yourself?
I’ve found the greater the amount we have invested, the more we consider using a ‘professional.’ Do others feel the same way?
Phil – the emotion of your experience read so loud…. But to say you don’t care if you screw up as long as it was your mistake sounds irratuional to me.
CC – the odds in your favour is what good investing is all about – and seriously – I think you are a really smart guy and have tremendous respect for you and what you do – , but you need to acknowledge that the altamira science and tech is expensive and narrowly focused – too things anyone skilled at avoiding bad active management would avoid. And the labour sponsored funds – these completely suck – always have and always will – easy to sell for bad advisors but easy to weed out – expensive and tax focused – do you guys really think this is the average active management??? You guys could have a hard time picking worse investments!!!- the problem hasn’t been active management – you would have had the same results in the passive NASDAQ index or some ultra small cap ETF
You people need to realize that your frustration with “active investment” is that you pick horrible invbestments.
My clients did not go into this crap when they were insisting for it and leaving if I wouldn’t put them in it (I didn’t and a few did)
Not to be spiteful, but you guys are right to be frustrated with the industry ( I bet I am way more frustrated and angered with it than you) but your opinions and assessment on the real problem are way off.
If you can’t recognize that, you are probably better suited to pure indexing. It can work too if you behave right but most won’t behave right (advisor or not)
Idk, I feel exactly the opposite. When the amount I had invested was small, the costs taken out by high mutual fund fees were also quite small. I was too busy generating income in my very busy job to worry about it. However after hoarding cash for many years and putting investment education aside I finally took the time off work one summer to learn as much as I could about investing before committing a lot of that cash to long term investments. I bought many books and spent hundreds of hours learning online, including reading every post CC had ever made. The economies of scale made it worthwhile.
When your portfolio reaches high 6 figures or 7 figures(which let’s face it is generally the minimum for most % based advisors), that begins to be some serious money you’re paying them. I’m not completely opposed to paying a financial planner but if/when I ever do I’ll make sure she is adding value and will pay her an hourly fee for her advice. I’ll make sure she is knowledgeable in the areas I feel are my weak points(taxes). It seems to me a lot of fees get paid in investment circles without generating any added value, very liitle accountability. The old saying “you get what you pay for” doesn’t seem to apply..
I think once you understand how the investment advisory business makes its money(by separating clients from their money) it’s hard to go back to that. Fee for service just like you’d pay a lawyer or accountant makes a lot more sense IMO and avoids conflicts of interest.
@ldk and @GSP: I agree with GSP. The larger my portfolio gets, the less interested I am in getting a typical financial advisor. I could see paying an advisor for an hour or two of his time for some advice, but I would prefer to maintain control.
@Rob: Are you a financial advisor or a typo generator?
@Preet: Your comment here demonstrates why I trust your blog so much. Here’s a guy in the business of running mutual fund, telling us why passive investing is a good idea.
@Michael James and GSP: Thanks for the input and the food for thought.
We became mutual fund refugees 6 or 7 years ago and now we have a bit of a hodge-podge system…we manage some of our own money, (ETFs through a discount brokerage and GICs in our TFSAs) but the bulk of our assets(both registered and non) are still under management (primarily individual stocks) with an advisor that we pay a % of AUM. (NOT the guy who spent years selling us crap mutual funds.) His fees are one of our biggest expenses–we are trying to determine if it is money well spent or not.
@Rob: Actually, I should have said “improve the odds” instead of “putting the odds in your favour”. Yes, you can improve the odds by weeding out managers who don’t satisfy criteria common to out performing managers. I don’t know if that still puts the odds in your favour in the sense that chances of outperformance over the long-term are better than a coin toss. I’d like to see studies if they exist on this.
@Idk: I am a DIY because our financial affairs are very simple. I don’t ever see paying for investment advice but when our financial affairs get complicated with estate planning issues etc. I wouldn’t mind paying a very good financial advisor on a per-hour basis. These advisors are not very common but they do exist.
However, I would be amiss if I didn’t point out that DIY investing isn’t easy. It is very hard to stick to a well-thought out investment process when (a) markets are in crash-and-burn mode or (b) everyone and their brother-in-law is making money in some asset class. This is an especially acute problem when you have a portfolio of significant size relative to your annual income. For instance, say your portfolio is worth 5x your annual income. If you have a 60-40 stock/bond split and stocks lose 1/3 of their value, your portfolio has “lost” 2x your annual income. Not many investors will maintain equanimity in the face of such a decline. Investors who have trouble sticking to their investment policy might be better off hiring a competent financial advisor. Unfortunately though, it isn’t very easy finding a good advisor.
@Patrick: Preet works for a index fund company. I don’t think that colours his opinion (he was pro indexing even earlier) but I wanted to set the record straight.
@ldk: If you have a 6 or 7 year track record with the investment manager, you might want to compare the asset class returns with the benchmark. 6 or 7 years is still a short time frame and the investment manager might show skill in stock selection but still underperform due to luck but it is a starting point for your investigation.
Why would someone pay for “advice” You can always look it up free in a book at the library or on the internet?
Sorry Michael, that last post was quickly typed on the tiny blackberry keyboard – looking back at it, it is a mess – my apologies
@Rob: Ordinarily I try to ignore such things, but in this case it seemed to interfere with picking up your intended meaning.
[...] Canadian Capitalist was asking why we invest our own money. Should we just use professionals to manage our money? [...]
[...] Canadian Capitalist defends DIY investing. [...]
Great post.
Anyone who looks into it can find that indices have outperformed activley managed funds over pretty much every time period. Take a look at this article http://ezinearticles.com/?Mutual-Fund-Investing,-Ending-the-Passive-Index-Versus-Actively-Managed-Fund-Debate&id=4369686 which compares the investments held within a activley managed mutual fund vs. the same companies index fund and it becomes pretty clear why.
I think it is good use of money to pay someone (a reasonalble amount) to help manage your finances, and bad use of money to pay for someone to manage your investments.