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moneysense.ca, 14/04/08
Efficient Market Theory and Indexing
A good definition of efficient markets can be found in a paper by Eugene Fama titled Random Walks in Stock Market Prices:
An “efficient” market is defined as a market where there are large numbers of rational profit-maximizers actively competing, with each trying to predict future market values of individual securities, and where important current information is almost freely available to all participants. In an efficient market, competition among the many intelligent participants leads to a situation where, at any point in time, actual prices of individual securities already reflect the effects of information based both on events that have already occurred and on events which as of now the market expects to take place in the future. In other words, in an efficient market at any point in time the actual price of a security will be a good estimate of its intrinsic value.
While academics like Fama set store by EMT, on the other side of the fence are people like Warren Buffett whose tremendous long-term track record appears to contradict the theory. Buffett himself has weighed in on the validity of EMT noting that “observing correctly that the market was frequently efficient, [efficient market theorists] went on to conclude incorrectly that it was always efficient. The difference between these propositions is night and day”. In this battle of giants, which side would you pick?
At first glance, the debate seems to be of enormous importance to indexers. If EMT is true and stock prices reflect all publicly known information and are subsequently fairly valued, then it follows that it is futile to try to beat the market and indexing would be the only way to invest.
But what if EMT isn’t always true? We all know that people can be very foolish at times; so perhaps, smart investors can take advantage of other people’s foolishness. To paraphrase Buffett, maybe it’s possible to find flowers that are priced like weeds. However, there is a fly in the ointment (or a caterpillar in the salad, as P. G. Wodehouse would say): even if stock prices are occasionally (or even frequently) mispriced, can average investors (or indeed the average fund manager) readily take advantage of it? Here, the evidence is overwhelming that beating the index consistently is extraordinarily difficult because investors have to overcome what John Bogle calls the relentless logic of humble arithmetic – investors, on average, can only earn the returns that the market Gods provide less expenses. Thus even if EMT turned out to be invalid, a strategy of earning market returns while keeping expenses low is still a winning strategy.
moneysense.ca, 14/04/08









I may one day turn into an indexer like yourself, but for now, i’m stubborn enough to pick my own stocks. Like the EMH/EMT states, it’s based on “publicly” available information. As small caps have less coverage from analysts, there may be more opportunities there. But that’s just my opinion.
Great post.
Are you in love with Warren Buffet or something??
Just kidding – I believe in the EMH, but nothing is black and white or 100% true or false. I don’t think at this point it’s possible for the EMH to be invalid (ie completely invalid). EMH is not perfect but as you say – trying to profit from the IMH (inefficient market hypothesis) is a tough game.
Mike
Even if markets aren’t efficient 100% of the time (which makes sense), indexing is still a great strategy! You don’t have to beat the market to get good returns, unless your portfolio really has to grow 50% per year to make your plan work. Plus, even with an index fund you can take advantage of times when people underprice or overprice the market as a whole.
If you delve deeper into the EMH, you should know what there are actually three levels of market efficiency: strong, semi-strong and weak. The market is weak-form efficient if prices reflect historical pricing patterns and information (meaning one cannot make excess returns using technical analysis). The market is semi-strong efficient if prices reflect all publicly available information (meaning one cannot make excess returns using fundamental analysis). If the market is strong efficient, then prices reflect all information (even inside information). Given that insiders on average make excess returns on a given stock, most believe that strong form efficiency is theoretical at best. It is a sort of argument in favour of insider trading though. Once insiders come to market, the price adjusts to the information and makes the market more efficient. Efficiency is defined as the speed and accuracy with which securities prices come to reflect new information.
On a related note, the financial markets throw up mispricings from time to time. Before the SEC enacted Reg NMS, it was possible to find arbitrage opportunities between market centres in the US financial markets. In theory that is now impossible. Nevertheless, there are still opportunities between markets, like the TSX vs the NYSE or NASDAQ for dual-listed stocks. Sometimes opportunities can arise between securities that should move in tandem, such as SPY and IVV or DIA and IYY. Of course, this is all very useless to investors. Arbitrage is the domain of traders.
The market can be efficient without being right.
The point is that it is very difficult, nigh on impossible, for anyone to consistently profit from how the market is wrong.
That is the nuance to the EMH that nearly everyone overlooks.
I think even Fama’s research partner Ken French now concedes there is some mispricing. But we are talking about 1 to 2 pct in the variations of returns. And people spend at least that in costs and taxes trying to capture it!
The fact remains that about 95 pct of the variation in returns from one portfolio to another comes down to the asset allocation. the other 5 pct is momentum, noise and mispricing.
That’s what you’re fighting over.
The following 12 independent studies have empirical proofs that high yielding dividend stocks generate better return over a longer time horizon. Are these studies fundamentally flawed due to incorrect interpretations of empirical data?
http://www.tweedy.com/library_docs/papers/highdivresearch.pdf
Dividend investors are generally regarded as contrarians. We all know that the average retail investors relentlessly underperform the stock market by buying and selling at preciously the wrong times. Contrarians are part of the equation to bring balance to the market.
Mr Denmore wrote, “The fact remains that about 95 pct of the variation in returns from one portfolio to another comes down to the asset allocation. the other 5 pct is momentum, noise and mispricing.”
Well, that’s actually not a fact.
A research conducted by Ibbotson and others discovered asset allocation explains 90% of the variability of a fund’s return *over* time. I interpret that as AA explains 90% of a fund volatility.
However, the same research also found that asset allocation explains only 40%of the difference in returns across different funds, while 60% is explained by security selection, timing, and fee differences.
http://corporate.morningstar.com/ib/documents/MethodologyDocuments/IBBAssociates/AssetAllocationExplain.pdf
FJ: However, you dice it, you run against the logic that as a group we can’t all be above average. In fact, if we take into account investing expenses, taxes etc. you have be well above average just to break even.
You won’t find me dissing dividends or the importance of reinvesting dividends, which I think are important for total returns as well. I’m counting on the current 2% dividend yield to provide me with a large portion of my returns and I think there is a very high probability that the dividend will keep pace and even beat inflation over the long-term.
But take the studies that show high dividends being better than low dividends by x%. How exactly does an average investor take advantage of it (assuming it works as well in the future as it did in the past)? Take the Siegel study, for instance, which shows that the highest quintile yielders beat the lowest by 3% from 1957 to 2002. The study assumes that stocks are sorted by dividend yield every year-end, the returns calculated over the next year and then resorted again. It would have worked splendidly in a world with no commissions, no taxes, no bid-ask spreads etc.
When we try to systematically exploit mechanical strategies that worked in the past, we run into the problem that they may not work in the future. If all market participants realize that high dividend yields are their ticket to beat market returns, they will take advantage of it such that it won’t work in the future.
I’ve long had my doubts that markets truly are efficient at all times, but as you say, that doesn’t mean I can expect to beat the market consistently by outsmarting the other guys.
I think the track records of numerous value investors who’ve consistently outperformed shows that the market isn’t always pricing equities in a 100% efficient way, but unless you’re Warren Buffett, you’re unlikely to be able to consistenly profit off of that fact.
So I’m quite content to track the index, roll the dice occasionally on a beaten down blue chip in the hopes I might get lucky, and of course — buy Buffett.
CC: While it’s true that commissions, taxes and bid-ask spreads are a performance drag, the overhead difference between dividend investing and ETF is very minimal, and possibly non-existence.
Nowadays, commissions are being driven down by fierce competitions. Retail investors can enjoy an 80+% saving by switching from a traditional broker to an online discount broker.
ETFs, too, are being saddled by capital gains as constitutes are being dropped off and replaced within the index due to M&A and other activities.
Another point being dividends are more tax-efficient than capital gains; dividends neutralize the corporate tax at the personal level. With capital gains, investors are taxed twice: once at the corporate level, and again when they sell. Over time, dividend tax credit and dividend reinvestment drive up the adjusted-cost-base, so investors benefit from reduced future tax-obligation. Everything being equal, a portfolio that derives a greater percentage from dividends will outperform on an after-tax basis.
>>”If all market participants realize that high dividend yields are their ticket to beat market returns, they will take advantage of it such that it won’t work in the future.”
In a perfect world, I’d agree. But the reality is that participants lack the discipline to follow through with the process, which is why dividend investing (a form of contrarian investing) should continue to outperform unless we see a fundamental change to investor behaviours.
FJ: The comments about investing costs and the ability to take advantage of systematic mispricing is in the specific context of the Siegel study. I hope you’ll agree that concluding that the high decile dividend yielders did 2% better than the index without accounting for the excess expenses is not accurate. Also, the selection of stocks is mechanical in the Siegel study and I’m saying that such “discoveries” have a tendency of not working in the future.
Even the superiority of value (as constructed by mechanical rules such as P/B ratios) over growth isn’t clear cut, so I don’t buy the superiority of an average portfolio of dividend paying stocks over the market averages. Bogle, Malkiel and others point to how much markets are mean reverting and strategies that outperformed the averages for long periods of time reverted to subsequent under performance. Note that this claim does not preclude a portfolio of dividend stocks, perhaps constructed by someone like you
, from outperforming the averages.
>>”I hope you’ll agree that concluding that the high decile dividend yielders did 2% better than the index without accounting for the excess expenses is not accurate.”
I don’t mean to sound like a pest. Let’s try work this out as a team and put biases aside, okay?
XIU is charging an MER of 0.17% annually. When an investor buys $1,000 worth of Royal Bank shares through QuesTrade, he pays a one-time fee of $5 or 0.5% of the purchase price. Although the transaction fee is expensive at first, the investor will eventually recoup within the next 3 years, and enjoy MER-free on that $1,000 for the rest of his investment time horizon. Also for the most part, I don’t feel that turnover rate is high for dividend investing. A high yielding stock will generally remain that way for many years. So, I almost always leave my existing holdings alone, and add to high yielding stocks with new dividends and cash.
Finally, tax saving should be part of the cost equation. As I alluded to earlier, the dividend investor still has the dividend tax credit to boast after-tax total return.
>>” Bogle, Malkiel and others point to how much markets are mean reverting and strategies that outperformed the averages for long periods of time reverted to subsequent under performance. Note that this claim does not preclude a portfolio of dividend stocks, perhaps constructed by someone like you, from outperforming the averages.”
Thank you for your vote of confidence.
Did Bogle and Malkiel specifically include dividend portfolios constructed by anybody at all? Siegel’s study was pretty long, spanning 45 years from 1957 to 2002. Another study mentioned in the link I provided, “Triumph of the Optimists: 101 Years of Global Investment Returns,” concluded that the top decile dividend stocks eclipsed their bottom counterparts by 1.8% over a 74-year period from 1926 to 2000. 74 years is a long time. It’s the life expectancy for an average male. Cumulatively, the top decile stocks have a whopping 2.29 times the wealth generated by the lower-yielding stocks. Mean reversion is currently facing at a mountain of excess gains to overcome.
CC, you have the most authoritative voice in the personal finance blogoshpere. Being an open-minded individual, under what condition(s) would you be convinced that high yielding stocks do beat the market over the long-haul? I’m just curious.
FJ: Sure, let’s work our way through this. How does a dividend investor actually construct a portfolio compared with an index investor? In year 1, the index investor buys an ETF, the dividend investor buys say 5 stocks. In year 2, the index investor again adds to his ETF and the dividend investor adds to some or all of the same 5 holdings. And they continue to do this for say 25 years. Maybe in some years, the dividend investor replaces one of his holdings with another dividend paying stock. Do you agree that this is how the two portfolios should be compared?
Yes, I think that’s pretty good, CC. Obviously in subsequent years, the dividend investors will diversify outside of the original 5. I believe 25 to 30 stocks is a good range to aim for.
Also keep in mind that unless you buy penny stocks, Questrade charges $5 regardless if you buy $1,000 or $10,000 worth of shares. As your portfolio grows, transaction fees practically vanish behind the scene.
CC & FJ, looking forward to seeing you guys go toe-to-toe on this one. I alwasy enjoy a good EMT debate!
FJ: How did the dividend investor pick the five stocks in his portfolio in the first year? What criteria allows a stock to be included in the portfolio of 25 to 30 stocks? Is it an objective measure like the highest yielding stocks of an index? Or is it more subjective, such as in the investors opinion, a stock is attractively priced?
CC: The investor will pick whatever 5 stocks based on his ability at the time. It won’t be a perfect starter portfolio, but that’s okay; the first 5 stocks won’t make or break his long-term return. Next year he’ll come back a little wiser and richer. He might add to a few of his existing positions and/or start a few new names. There’s no rush to jump to 30 stocks right away. In reality, how critical is it for a 25-year-old to diversify his $5,000 portfolio when 99% of his assets is in his head?
Different dividend investors have different biases, but I believe most of us would agree that we look for a combination of good yield, sustainable dividend growth, strong cash flow, safe payout ratios, and cheap valuation.
Telly – despite the public display, CC and I get along quite well.
FJ: As for a dividend investor constructing a portfolio such as you describe, I have no idea whether it will beat the index or not. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Is there any study that shows that a portfolio of 5 to 30 stocks picked from the universe of stocks with good dividend yield on average performs better than the index? I’ll freely admit that I know of no study that shows otherwise, so I’m willing to keep an open mind.
Now, let’s look at the studies that do seem to show that dividend investing does better than the index. To replicate the Siegel study today, an index investor would buy and hold IVV and pay a MER of 0.09% every year. The dividend investor, will buy 100 of the highest yielding stocks in Year 1. In Year 2, he has new money saved and has to again purchase 100 stocks in addition to selling some of the stocks that have dropped out of the list. In contrast, the index investor still buys some more of IVV. Capital gains may be owed on the stocks that were sold and every year the dividend investor makes at least 99 more transactions. These costs must be deducted from the excess returns shown in the study.
Even after deducting extra expenses, let’s say that dividend payers provided an excess return. Theoretically, a dividend investor with a large portfolio can take advantage of Siegel’s study (as his trading costs but not his taxes due to unknown turnover, are negligible) but so are other smart investors (Siegel himself is an advisor for WisdomTree which has a number of funds like the Dividend Top 100 fund) . That is, a systematic advantage that existed in the past may not work in the future.
telly: I’ll second FJ. We get along really well. And glad you find the discussion interesting
Holding 100 stocks directly is unrealistic for retail investors, but the real message from Tweedy Brown’s compilation isn’t to buy 100 stocks; it is that higher yielding stocks tend to out perform, and they have been doing that for decades.
There are plenty of dividend studies to pick from. Siegel’s happens to be one with just 5 deciles, but there are others with 6 or 10 deciles. There are no rules that say you must buy 100 stocks. “Dogs of the Dow,” for example, only needs 10.
>>”Is there any study that shows that a portfolio of 5 to 30 stocks picked from the universe of stocks with good dividend yield on average performs better than the index? ”
Dogs of the Dow is one. Also in my blog, I just finished a research showing that Canadian dividend funds have out performed TSX on a gross total return basis. Since Canada is a small market, all dividend funds are very top heavy. So, having 25-30 stocks is a pretty good proxy to all dividend funds, except you don’t pay the MER.
ETFs aren’t exactly cheap either. XIC’s MER is 0.25%, but its tracking error is 0.40% since inception. On a $300k portfolio, that’s $1,200 evaporated every year; enough to buy 250 different stocks with QuesTrade.
>>”Capital gains may be owed on the stocks that were sold”
ETFs have turnovers and capital gains too. The difference is that dividend investors are free to engage in tax-loss selling. For example, sell the stock deepest in hole, replace it with a similar one in the same industry, and then swap them back after 31 days. Consequently, you have enough tax-loss to absorb future tax obligations.
>>”Theoretically, a dividend investor with a large portfolio can take advantage of Siegel’s study but so are other smart investors. That is, a systematic advantage that existed in the past may not work in the future.”
It’s true that smart investors can take advantage of this, but the market is full of lemmings buying last year’s trends. This isn’t about to change any time soon.
“Telly – despite the public display, CC and I get along quite well. ”
FJ, I realize that. I love a healthy debate. In fact, this topic has been debated inside my skull for well over a year now.
In the end I just try to “keep it simple”. I doubt that either strategy will fair significantly better in the long term, but I realize that changing strategies regularly is even worse than picking the wrong one.
It’s a great discussion. I just hope others aren’t missing this gem because it’s hidden in the comments of a post (though I suspect they might be).
Telly – I think ETF or “keep it simple” is a sound strategy for most investors, and I’m not trying to discourage the use of it.
At the same time (at least in Canada,) I see ETF investors gathering up in the same room patting each other’s back, but the community is basically full of echo walls. Very few people have genuine opinions anymore. It only takes a few prominent proponents to stand up and beat their chest, and all of a sudden, everyone plaster stock picking (including dividend investing) as being expensive, tax-inefficient, and lagging. Maybe they’re right, but base on my homework, I found the opposite being true. Dividend investing is in fact, cheaper (no mer,) more tax-efficient (dividend tax credit) and have evidence of out performance (US & UK studies plus my own Canadian study.)
Again, I feel ETFs have their merits if investors fancy other activities for their time. For others, I don’t think it’s a waste of effort. I believe there’s a right strategy for everyone.
FJ, I agree but I would argue that the dividend investing crowd (and its significant as well) also has a tendency to beat their chest and proclaim to have the “right” strategy.
Again, I think one of the biggest issues for me personally is my tendency to flip between strategies and admittedly, not because I’ve created my own studies to show that one is superior to the other but rather, because some days I enjoy being an active investor and others I wonder why I bother.
So to me, this argument needs to consider another more subjective & perhaps immeasurable factor, specifcally: which method of investing removes most of the emotional aspect of investing? I would argue that that method is indexing.
FJ: Let’s look at some of the other studies starting with the Dimson study. It takes 30% of highest yielding stocks. That’s 150 stocks each year.
The Dremen study: It’s one quintile of 1500 stocks or a 300 stock portfolio.
The Lehman Brothers study: First their universe is one thousand largest stocks rebalanced quarterly. Then they take the top quintile which is 200 stocks.
The high-yield, low payout study: A basket of 50 stocks created based on the dividend yields at each month end and then they find decile 8 and 9 is better than 10. If you take decile 8 and 9, it is another high turnover portfolio of 100 stocks.
The Dogs of the Dow? Again, the answer isn’t so clear cut. Here’s one paper that questions if the Dogs are all they are cracked to be. Link
I personally pick a few stocks for the Canadian portion and I can appreciate the attraction – it’s more fun and enjoyable (at least to me). But I question the claim that it is oh-so easy that anyone can do it successfully or all you have to do is follow strategy X (in this case, assemble a portfolio of high-yield stocks) and you will be successful. I’ll admit that if you keep costs low, buy at decent prices, you have good odds that you’ll do at least as well the market. But you also face some odds that you’ll do worse.
Telly, that goes along the same line as my thinking. If you’re not passionate about stock picking, then indexing is probably the right strategy.
>>”which method of investing removes most of the emotional aspect of investing? I would argue that that method is indexing.”
Specifically what are the other emotional aspects of investing? Watching an investment tumbling down or moving sideways for years? That in particular cannot be avoided with ETFs. I find dividend investing appealing, because at least with dividend stocks, you’re being paid to remain patient.
What these studies tell us is that high yielding stocks have trounced low yielding counterparts consistently across different periods, sample sizes and geographical locations. These are not proofs, but strong evidence, and I’m recycling these evidence and supplementing them with my own research (http://financialjungle.com/2008/04/16/investing/canadian-dividend-stocks-are-flexing-muscles-too/), which found that the results were, again, consistent north of the border for at least the previous 15 years. This is not a coincidence. The financial industry and I didn’t conspire 15 years ago, so I can write this post today.
All possibilities exist in investing, but investing is about probability. The bottomline for me is that dividend investing has a better probability of winning, and if it doesn’t win, at least there’s plan B: strong dividend streams.
>>”But I question the claim that it is oh-so easy that anyone can do it successfully or all you have to do is follow strategy X (in this case, assemble a portfolio of high-yield stocks) and you will be successful.”
In one way, I share the skepticism with you, which is why I look at other figures beside simply yields. On the other hand, I happen to believe that dividend investing is simple, but not “oh-so easy,” because most participants still end up abandoning the strategy after short periods of under performance.
Many Canadians have done quite well with dividend investing. There’s bunyip whom I interviewed: http://financialjungle.com/2008/01/28/investing/meet-the-retired-dividend-investor-next-door/
There’s “Idontwork” from the Canadian Business forum who recently retired at 40 year-old. Hboy retired at around 45. There’s Tom Connolly, but I don’t know when he retired.
A very interesting discussion on dividends investing vs “keep it simple”. As a family, my wife and I are doing both. On the keep it simple front, my wife’s RRSPs are in low MER ETFs and mutual funds with max diversification. It’s a great fire-and-forget strategy that fits my wife’s personality for investing. I also consider it very safe. I’m going with dividend stocks in a self directed RRSP to take on more risk, and all going well get better returns.
On the original topic, I don’t consider the markets to be very efficient. There are too many ‘chartists’ and crazy models out there that can send the market spinning. It’s not that the market is missing all that much information, but that there’s too much nonsense information getting piled on top.
“What these studies tell us is that high yielding stocks have trounced low yielding counterparts consistently across different periods, sample sizes and geographical locations.”
FJ: That’s exactly what I’m not agreeing with. The returns shown by the studies in the Tweedy Brown paper are gross returns, not adjusted for extra expenses and extra turnover. You’re saying you can construct a cheaper portfolio than these studies show (I don’t disagree with that claim) but where’s the evidence in past performance that an average portfolio of 5 to 30 stocks gathered from an universe of dividend payers (similar to the one you have constructed) outperforms the index. In fact, the hurdle is even higher because the lower percentile portfolios of dividend payers should still outperform the index to validate the claim that dividend investing is superior.
“Watching an investment tumbling down or moving sideways for years? That in particular cannot be avoided with ETFs.”
Not every indexed investor is 100% in equities. If they hold bonds (in a tax-deferred account), some REITs, they have an income component and have reduced the volatility of the portfolio. The equities portion provide a dividend stream and they could easily buy some good dividend paying stocks to supplement their portfolio. The yield on our own portfolios (about 75% indexed) is 3.1%. How is that a dividend investor would look at his entire portfolio in equities and be comforted by the dividends but the indexed investor who has a portfolio that is less volatile and is also receiving an income stream (albeit a smaller one) would panic?
>>Specifically what are the other emotional aspects of investing? Watching an investment tumbling down or moving sideways for years? That in particular cannot be avoided with ETFs. I find dividend investing appealing, because at least with dividend stocks, you’re being paid to remain patient.
FT, that’s a good point but I also think that dividend investors are more inclined to look for good entry points than ETF investors, and thus, are more likely to notice the dips or tumbles and perhaps react.
I also enjoy stock picking and analysis so I’m not entirely an index investor but I admit to paying a lot more attention to the peaks and dips of my dividend stocks than my index funds / ETFs. I’m a buy and hold investor but the stocks I own definitely tend to test my patience more so than the index funds.
Just throwing my own dumb opinion into the debate between CC and FJ (I asked CC a related questiona while ago):
The decision I made was that any benefit to picking individual stocks would be offset by increased variance for which I was not being paid. That is, it is somewhat difficult to maintain a fully diversified portfolio on an ongoing basis and I am willing to pay ETFs to do that for me. If I then wish to invest a bit more riskily, I can buy VXF instead of VTI or go on margin or some such. So, if for example, you could beat VTI, by, oh 2% annually by really clever investing without picking riskier stocks, the problem is that such clever investing probably does not easily allow you to have removed all uncorrelated risk (not included in the definition of “riskier” stock). So, usually, you’re better off (I think) paying someone to ensure you’ve perfectly diversified away as much variability as you can, and then getting properly paid for any increased correlated risk. Sorry, my translation of my thought process is probably a bit ill spoke.
>>”The returns shown by the studies in the Tweedy Brown paper are gross returns, not adjusted for extra expenses and extra turnover.”
True, but neither are the indexes used in the research. Although IVV’s MER is only 0.09%, tracking error is 1.62%. IVV sank from $136.63 to $126.65 over the past 8 years, while S&P500 jumped from $1,365.56 to $1,441.61.
I wouldn’t advise trading 100 stocks, but if necessary, Interactive Brokers is offering $120 for 120 trades per year. You do the math on a $100k portfolio.
>>”where’s the evidence in past performance that an average portfolio of 5 to 30 stocks gathered from an universe of dividend payers (similar to the one you have constructed) outperforms the index.”
Indexes aren’t as big in Canada. For TSX60, 30 stocks is the top 1/2 decile. For TSX300, 30 stocks is the top 1/10th decile. These are consistent with Tweedy’s paper which found that top deciles dividend payers have out performed bottom deciles. And again, results are consistent with Canadian dividend funds.
I made a mistake with the tracking error calculation.
There were a couple of problems with my intepretation of data from Finance Yahoo. But I managed to find the tracking error from:
http://www.ishares.com/product_info/fund/returns/IVV.htm
Since inception, IVV managed to beat its underlying index on a gross return basis. Adjusting to MER, the tracking error was 0.07%, although that’s not always consistent. For example, the 5-year tracking error was 0.09%.
For comparison, Interactive Brokers’ “MER” on a $100k portfolio is 0.12%. Not enough to tip the scale.
FJ: You’re not pulling that on me. The studies cover past returns and while I have no idea how much trading commissions cost every year since 1957, I am pretty sure it wasn’t $1 per trade. Also, I never pretended that investing in the index has *no costs*. I’m saying that excess costs and excess turnover (in a taxable account) were involved and should be accounted for. Would we still be left with out performance once these costs are considered? Maybe.
Still, that doesn’t tell us anything about future returns. I guess we’ll find out in the future if funds like the WisdomTree Dividend Top 100 Fund (DTN) do indeed out perform the index. Put me down in the skeptics column.
CC>>”The studies cover past returns…”
Everyone says past performance isn’t indicative of future performance, but everyone uses past data all the time. Bogle’s and Malkiel’s books are full of statistics to support their views, and I see no indexers crying foul. I can understand that using past data is frown upon in the context of marketing timing (within a market cycle,) but not all past data is useless especially when they’re measured in decades.
>>”while I have no idea how much trading commissions cost every year since 1957, I am pretty sure it wasn’t $1 per trade.”
Why dwell on that? All that matter is $1 trades are available now and the obstacle is resolved.
Beside, we’re not flying on a NASA mission. It’s not essential to follow the instructions to the gills. If your 100th stock is yielding 5.00% and the 101st stock is now yielding 5.01%, you might decide not to turnover these marginal stocks. Realistically, this isn’t going to change the outcome, because the second decile is still a strong decile and in some measures, a better decile. If you have new money, then rebalance on the under-weighted stocks only; don’t have to buy all 100 at once.
The execution doesn’t need to be perfect. Canadian dividend funds still managed to beat the index by loosely buying high decile dividend stocks.
… just a side point: I don’t believe ETFs were available to investors in 1957. Moreover, MERs were higher when ETFs were first introduced.
“Why dwell on that?”
Because it is one explanation for the excess returns found in the studies. The 500 stocks would be purchased once and every year changes made to reflect the changes in the index. The turnover of the index isn’t much, perhaps 6%. Compare that to the 100 stocks purchase initially in Siegel’s study. If it was equal weighted, you have to rebalance pretty much every stock, every year from 1957 onward, which means you sell every stock and buy it again.
“Bogle’s and Malkiel’s books are full of statistics to support their views”…
Very true but recall Warren Buffett quip: “If past history was all there was to the game, the richest people would be librarians”. There is a corollary – there should be a logical explanation for the empirical evidence and in capitalization-weighted indices there is. The entire market must be held by all participating investors and the market returns reflect the average returns and not every participating investor can be above average. Where is the logical explanation for dividend investing is superior to the index?
In the case of value stocks, the academics provide some logical support with evidence that value stocks are riskier (as measured by volatility) and hence provide higher returns and still there is no consensus because the empirical evidence depends on which time period is picked. In the list of studies there is no attempt to explain why dividend investing should be better. Maybe dividend investing is a form of value investing, hence is riskier (as measured by volatility) and hence provides higher returns. That would be one explanation.
FJ: I think there is enough material in our discussion for a detailed post. I’ll write one up sometime next week.
>>”Because it is one explanation for the excess returns found in the studies.”
My full question was why dwell on obsolete expenses (ETFs and dividends,) when both indexing MERs and trading expenses are lower today? It’s more fruitful to compare gross returns, because we can then start deducting the updated expenses on both sides of the comparison.
>>”If it was equal weighted, you have to rebalance pretty much every stock, every year from 1957 onward, which means you sell every stock and buy it again.”
I mentioned before that a high yielding stock (e.g. Royal Bank) will generally remain that way for many years. Rebalancing doesn’t mean sell all your Royal Bank shares only to repurchase them back.
>>”Warren Buffett quip…”
It’s a witty statement but it doesn’t agree with the real world. Our own Canadian billionaire investor, Seymour Schulich, have read 2,500 books in his life time. I’m sure his home resembles a library.
>>”Where is the logical explanation for dividend investing is superior to the index? ”
There isn’t a logical explanation for a behaviour problem, but we observe that market participants tend to chase trendy stocks instead of good old boring dividend stocks.
>”Maybe dividend investing is a form of value investing, hence is riskier (as measured by volatility) and hence provides higher returns.”
I don’t know where you’re getting your information from. I’ve read many investment literatures before, and this is the first time I hear someone says dividend/value investing is riskier.
On page 157 of Contrarian Investment Strategies (1998,) David Dreman found that high yielding stocks lost on average 3.8% in all the bear markets between 1970-1996. The market lost 7.5%. I’m not cherry picking as this book happens to be on my table. I don’t have time to compile all the studies right now, but here’s an article that answers some of your questions:
http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/pricevolatilitydividendsvsnodividends.asp
“Rebalancing doesn’t mean sell all your Royal Bank shares only to repurchase them back.”
We are talking in circles here. I totally agree with you that you don’t have to sell Royal Bank for the way you invest. But that’s how the study is constructed, so it is relevant to talk about how exactly rebalancing is done in the study and question where the expenses are accounted for.
“… it doesn’t agree with the real world”
Sure it does. It means don’t extrapolate trends that existed in the past unless there is a good reason to think conditions exist for history to be repeat itself.
“… we observe that market participants tend to chase trendy stocks”
Including dividend stocks. For example, look how they chased the Dow Dogs in the early nineties. And that’s exactly my point: if dividend stocks did produce outperformance in the past (i.e. excess returns without more risk) what makes you think market participants won’t try to exploit it in the future now that cheap ways to capture high yielding stocks exist.
Perhaps, we should look at the performance of dividend ETFs 10 years from now and see how they fared.
CC: I don’t understand why you keep presenting variations of the same statement/question to me, and expecting different responses. Do you believe reciting the same question will help break out of this circular discussion?
1) “If all market participants realize that high dividend yields are their ticket to beat market returns, they will take advantage of it such that it won’t work in the future.”
2)”Theoretically, a dividend investor with a large portfolio can take advantage of Siegel’s study but so are other smart investors. That is, a systematic advantage that existed in the past may not work in the future. ”
3) “But I question the claim that it is oh-so easy that anyone can do it successfully or all you have to do is follow strategy X (in this case, assemble a portfolio of high-yield stocks) and you will be successful. ”
4)”if dividend stocks did produce outperformance in the past (i.e. excess returns without more risk) what makes you think market participants won’t try to exploit it in the future now that cheap ways to capture high yielding stocks exist.”
I’ll respond for the fourth time. Most participants lack the discipline to stick with a strategy if it doesn’t produce exceptional results each and every year.
>>”…you don’t have to sell Royal Bank for the way you invest. But that’s how the study is constructed, so it is relevant to talk about how exactly rebalancing is done in the study and question where the expenses are accounted for.”
Show me the part of the study where the investor must sell and repurchase the same stock even if it remains in the top decile next year. In the unlikely event that you actually find it, it wouldn’t matter, because we’re all problem solvers. The study summarizes the gross returns without fees. In real life, we can simply mimic that by hanging on to the stock without contaminating the results.
>>”It means don’t extrapolate trends that existed in the past unless there is a good reason to think conditions exist for history to be repeat itself.”
I already presented the reason. The condition is human psychology, and it’ll repeat itself well into the future.
>>”Perhaps, we should look at the performance of dividend ETFs 10 years from now and see how they fared.”
We don’t need to wait 10 years. I already have 15-years of Canadian data in my blog.
But do you believe it would’ve make a difference anyway? One of my unanswered questions to you was under what conditions would you be convinced that high yielding stocks do beat the market over the long-haul. There’s no answer because there were none. Your mind was already made up.
I know the drill. I’d present my evidence. You’d try to poke holes in them. But if all else fails, there’s always the “past performance isn’t indicative of future performance” umbrella offense. The merit of dividend investing was refuted before the trial began. I’m in a no-win predicament.
FJ: “Show me the part of the study where the investor must sell and repurchase the same stock even if it remains in the top decile next year.”
None of the studies tell you how the portfolio is constructed (I’ll have to try and borrow Future for Investors and the David Dremen book) except one: High Dividend, Low Payout study. In page 13, this is how they tell us the portfolio was constructed: “equal-weighted decile baskets based on dividend yields as of each month-end”.
Let’s see how to actually construct such a portfolio: say a dividend investor holds just 2 stocks, TD Bank and Royal Bank. TD Bank is trading at $50 and Royal Bank at $50 this month. And the portfolio has 100 stocks of each (equal-weight).
Next month, they are trading at $52 and $48 respectively. How would you replicate the study? The total portfolio has the same total $10,000 value we started with the previous month. To have equal weights, the study would split it into $5,000 each and end up with 96 stocks of TD and 104 stocks of Royal. So, that’s one buy and one sell. They do this for every month for 26 years and find that dividends do outperformed the index.
When Tweedy Browne produce a study like this shows the gross returns of a dividend portfolio is better and you call it “evidence”, why can’t I be skeptical about the net returns? When I express an opinion that the turnover is much higher and trading commissions and taxes will eat up the excess returns, all I hear is “trust me. It’s not that much more”, which I have no doubt is true about your portfolio but isn’t true of the study. I think it’s unfair to say that my mind was already made up.
You made an excellent point. But for the problem that we were describing, if RY and TD remain in the top decile next month/year, the investor doesn’t need to sell both stocks and buy them back.
I’m in agreement with you that that rebalancing every month is dumb. The other studies (including Siegel,) however, only rebalance once a year.
>>”So, that’s one buy and one sell.”
It’s not necessary to sell. Take advantage of the higher dividends. Use them to top up the under weighted stocks. If all some stocks remain in the top decile, you don’t sell everything. Only sell the ones that got knocked out of the decile. Also, let the reinvested dividends jack up the adjusted-cost-base.
>>”why can’t I be skeptical about the net returns? When I express an opinion that the turnover is much higher and trading commissions and taxes will eat up the excess returns, all I hear is “trust me. It’s not that much more””
Okay, let’s come up with some numbers. I’m going to assume Canadian tax rules even though I know Americans pay less taxes than us; I used to live there. However I’ll use BC taxes instead of Ontario. Let me know if you object.
Assumptions:
Realized capital gain per turnover = 20%
Capital gain inclusion rate = 50%
Marginal tax = 30% (on $37k to $70k income)
High Yield Portfolio (100 stocks in $100k):
Turnover rate = 20%
Tax-drag = 0.6%.
MER = 0.12%
Total Expense = 0.72%
Index:
Turnover rate = 6%
Tax-drag = 0.18%.
MER = 0.09%
Total Expense = 0.27%.
The difference in annual drag is 0.45%.
I didn’t account for the dividend-tax-credit-refunds or the higher adjusted-cost-base due to dividends from both portfolios, although the high yield portfolio will benefit more.
In the same Siegel study, the gross out performance of high yield stocks over S&P500 was 3.09%, or a 2.64% net advantage per year without accounting for tax refunds and adjusted-cost-base.
FJ: The crux of our disagreement is that you are taking a leap of faith in extrapolating past gross out performance, applying today’s taxes, commissions etc. and concluding that dividend investing would have been better on a net returns basis. Maybe dividend investing was better on a net return basis but by how much in the past is unknown from any of the studies. It is your prerogative to conclude that past gross returns (3%) minus today’s extra expenses (0.5%) will net you 2.5% extra in the future – I am not willing to make the leap of faith.
FJ: “I don’t know where you’re getting your information from. I’ve read many investment literatures before, and this is the first time I hear someone says dividend/value investing is riskier”.
Eugene Fama and Ken French have constructed a three factor model to explain the size and value premiums in equities and suggest that out performance of value is simply a compensation for extra risk in small and value stocks. Larry Swedroe in his book “Rational Investing in Irrational Times” devotes an entire chapter to explain that value stock out performance can be attributed to their extra risk (based on Fama and French). Others like Siegel believe the excess returns are due to inefficiency. A third camp questions even the persistence of out performance of value stocks (Malkiel and Bogle are in this camp). This is not a settled debate and despite the heated debate it is not clear (at least to me as a non-expert) who is right.
>>”This is not a settled debate…”
Yeah. Experts have been bickering for years, so how can a couple of bloggers resolve the debate within days?
Well, I don’t want to carry this any further, and your points are noted. For future reference, I think it’s important to recognize that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) is taking the past-performance and leap of faith approach to investing. Indexers assume the market is pretty efficient. That’s a leap of faith even though empirical evidence has proven otherwise a la tech bubble. And what about the notion that currency exchange will even out over the long-haul? That’s a leap of faith that many people seem to hold dear.
As long as everyone is playing by the same rules, remember to look into the mirror before passing judgments.
FJ: Fair enough. I think there is enough that we agree on including that in investing there are many roads to Jerusalem as long as some basic conditions are rigorously followed – paying attention to costs & taxes, not chasing performance, not trading too much, investing or reinvesting regularly etc.
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