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	<title>Comments on: C. D. Howe&#8217;s take on TFSA versus RRSP</title>
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	<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/</link>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-368732</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 04:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-368732</guid>
		<description>Any idea why the chart shows spikes in the results at $50k, $75k, $85k and $120k?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any idea why the chart shows spikes in the results at $50k, $75k, $85k and $120k?</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention C. D. Howe’s take on TFSA versus RRSP &#124; Canadian Capitalist -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210407</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention C. D. Howe’s take on TFSA versus RRSP &#124; Canadian Capitalist -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210407</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Canadian Capitalist, Buy-Sell Adviser. Buy-Sell Adviser said: Which saves more in taxes, a TFSA or RRSP? According to one report, the TFSA has the edge. http://bit.ly/cZHgN0 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Canadian Capitalist, Buy-Sell Adviser. Buy-Sell Adviser said: Which saves more in taxes, a TFSA or RRSP? According to one report, the TFSA has the edge. <a href="http://bit.ly/cZHgN0" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/cZHgN0</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Personal Finance Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts: Financial Shock Collar?</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210319</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Personal Finance Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts: Financial Shock Collar?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 06:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210319</guid>
		<description>[...] Canadian Capitalist also posted talking about the C.D. Howe&#8217;s take on TFSA versus RRSP where he talks about the Howe findings [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Canadian Capitalist also posted talking about the C.D. Howe&#8217;s take on TFSA versus RRSP where he talks about the Howe findings [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210165</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210165</guid>
		<description>@ Phil S: I don&#039;t think the TFSA amount is insignificant, especially for new investors.  

A pair of 30-year olds who put in the max every year for 25 years and retire early at age 55, would have contributed $250,000 between them.  At 4% real-return, this would be $430,000 dollars sitting there, tax-free on withdrawal.  That amount of money would be a fairly nice &quot;icing on the cake&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Phil S: I don&#8217;t think the TFSA amount is insignificant, especially for new investors.  </p>
<p>A pair of 30-year olds who put in the max every year for 25 years and retire early at age 55, would have contributed $250,000 between them.  At 4% real-return, this would be $430,000 dollars sitting there, tax-free on withdrawal.  That amount of money would be a fairly nice &#8220;icing on the cake&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: CanadianInvestor</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210156</link>
		<dc:creator>CanadianInvestor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210156</guid>
		<description>Good point CC, on the AETR. Total tax paid matters. I think one can eyeball the answer using the cumulative over vs under the curve working from left to right in the chart you have copied. The TFSA builds up a huge early lead at low incomes that probably isn&#039;t overcome by the RRSP until the working income gets to $100k+. If this approach is right, then only in Ontario at 60% replacement income does the RRSP beat the TFSA based on average tax rate. In Alberta and Quebec, and in Ontario at higher retirement income replacement rates, the TFSA always is a better choice, when a choice must be made.

For those who may have a wish to leave a legacy with any remaining TFSA/RRSP money after they die, as I have blogged about before (http://canadianfinancialdiy.blogspot.com/2009/07/rrsps-and-governments-secret-tax-weapon.html), since RRSP/RRIF money is all deeemed to be disposed of at death and the totality of funds taken into income, chances are that the death year tax rate will be high if not in the highest tax bracket. With TFSA, the money is all tax free and can flow 100% to beneficiaries. Another plus for the TFSA over the RRSP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point CC, on the AETR. Total tax paid matters. I think one can eyeball the answer using the cumulative over vs under the curve working from left to right in the chart you have copied. The TFSA builds up a huge early lead at low incomes that probably isn&#8217;t overcome by the RRSP until the working income gets to $100k+. If this approach is right, then only in Ontario at 60% replacement income does the RRSP beat the TFSA based on average tax rate. In Alberta and Quebec, and in Ontario at higher retirement income replacement rates, the TFSA always is a better choice, when a choice must be made.</p>
<p>For those who may have a wish to leave a legacy with any remaining TFSA/RRSP money after they die, as I have blogged about before (<a href="http://canadianfinancialdiy.blogspot.com/2009/07/rrsps-and-governments-secret-tax-weapon.html" rel="nofollow">http://canadianfinancialdiy.blogspot.com/2009/07/rrsps-and-governments-secret-tax-weapon.html</a>), since RRSP/RRIF money is all deeemed to be disposed of at death and the totality of funds taken into income, chances are that the death year tax rate will be high if not in the highest tax bracket. With TFSA, the money is all tax free and can flow 100% to beneficiaries. Another plus for the TFSA over the RRSP.</p>
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		<title>By: WealthWebGuru</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210152</link>
		<dc:creator>WealthWebGuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 07:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210152</guid>
		<description>My two cents on the topic is the RRSP makes sense if the MTR at the time of contribution is greater than the MTR at the time of withdrawal.  Generally, I think most peoples MTR in retirement is lower than the MTR while working so RRSPs edge out in the long run.

I think the TFSA is not great for long term not because of the math but rather because the likelihood that people will take out the money long before retirement.

Anyhow, here&#039;s my recent article on the topic before the release of the C. D. Howe Institute report. - http://www.wealthwebgurus.com/article/897/the-great-rrsp-debates.aspx.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My two cents on the topic is the RRSP makes sense if the MTR at the time of contribution is greater than the MTR at the time of withdrawal.  Generally, I think most peoples MTR in retirement is lower than the MTR while working so RRSPs edge out in the long run.</p>
<p>I think the TFSA is not great for long term not because of the math but rather because the likelihood that people will take out the money long before retirement.</p>
<p>Anyhow, here&#8217;s my recent article on the topic before the release of the C. D. Howe Institute report. &#8211; <a href="http://www.wealthwebgurus.com/article/897/the-great-rrsp-debates.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.wealthwebgurus.com/article/897/the-great-rrsp-debates.aspx</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil S</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210141</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 04:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210141</guid>
		<description>The one tricky thing about RRSPs is the whole silly tax game that you have to play.  The last time I read the rules, you have to be either completely out of your RSP by age 72, or else have it rolled into a RRIF.  If tax rates are the same in retirement as they are today while you&#039;re working (which I find hard to believe), then you will pay less tax if you take less money out of your RRSP each year in retirement than you made while contributing to your RRSP.

Obviously if you make the assumption that you take all of your RRSP savings out in one gigantic lump sum cash out payment, then of course you skew the tax figures to one that shows that it doesn&#039;t make any sense to use RRSPs.  Similarly, if you assume that you only take out enough $ to match the basic exemption, then you skew the calculation the other way as you get all of that money tax-free.

As I said, I absolutely love the TFSA structure from a tax standpoint.  It&#039;s just that the $5K annual limit isn&#039;t enough for me to consider it a serious retirement savings tool for at least another decade.  Even then, it will never be able to catch up to the total balance sitting in my RRSP account - it will just be less of a rounding error.  If they bumped up the annual limit to about $15K or $20K, then I would take it much more seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one tricky thing about RRSPs is the whole silly tax game that you have to play.  The last time I read the rules, you have to be either completely out of your RSP by age 72, or else have it rolled into a RRIF.  If tax rates are the same in retirement as they are today while you&#8217;re working (which I find hard to believe), then you will pay less tax if you take less money out of your RRSP each year in retirement than you made while contributing to your RRSP.</p>
<p>Obviously if you make the assumption that you take all of your RRSP savings out in one gigantic lump sum cash out payment, then of course you skew the tax figures to one that shows that it doesn&#8217;t make any sense to use RRSPs.  Similarly, if you assume that you only take out enough $ to match the basic exemption, then you skew the calculation the other way as you get all of that money tax-free.</p>
<p>As I said, I absolutely love the TFSA structure from a tax standpoint.  It&#8217;s just that the $5K annual limit isn&#8217;t enough for me to consider it a serious retirement savings tool for at least another decade.  Even then, it will never be able to catch up to the total balance sitting in my RRSP account &#8211; it will just be less of a rounding error.  If they bumped up the annual limit to about $15K or $20K, then I would take it much more seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Sampson</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210137</link>
		<dc:creator>Sampson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210137</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;a 30 y/o investing in RRSP’s will pay a lot more in taxes on his RRSP at retirement then he pays on his income today. Dont buy the hype.

Not true at all.

I know many 30 year olds in the 40% tax bracket.  Combine that with an early retirement - somewhere between 45-55 and I can guarantee that RRSPs are advantageous.

I think this discussion is very important.  CC will have the numbers, but most Canadians don&#039;t even contribute RRSPs let alone decide which registered account to put money into.  Even though its only $5k/year, look at the average savings of Canadian retirees, isn&#039;t it somewhere between $100-$200k.  That&#039;s maybe 10-15 years of TFSA contributions (non-inflation adjusted), so it&#039;s a &#039;small&#039; amount, but still very significant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;a 30 y/o investing in RRSP’s will pay a lot more in taxes on his RRSP at retirement then he pays on his income today. Dont buy the hype.</p>
<p>Not true at all.</p>
<p>I know many 30 year olds in the 40% tax bracket.  Combine that with an early retirement &#8211; somewhere between 45-55 and I can guarantee that RRSPs are advantageous.</p>
<p>I think this discussion is very important.  CC will have the numbers, but most Canadians don&#8217;t even contribute RRSPs let alone decide which registered account to put money into.  Even though its only $5k/year, look at the average savings of Canadian retirees, isn&#8217;t it somewhere between $100-$200k.  That&#8217;s maybe 10-15 years of TFSA contributions (non-inflation adjusted), so it&#8217;s a &#8216;small&#8217; amount, but still very significant.</p>
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		<title>By: Miike</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210136</link>
		<dc:creator>Miike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210136</guid>
		<description>I think we will always be recalculating TFSA vs RRSP for years to come. Because of the changes in future tax laws, because there is no clear winner (it always depends on your personal situations) and because they are our only two options (sort of like financing vs. leasing on cars).

Regardless, I will probably take the info and weight my contributions based on where i sit on the income scale, but still contribute some into both. 

@Boko I don&#039;t think of Tax differing so much a fraud, but rather before the TFSA it was our only option. But what i really wanted to ask you was what policies you are referring to south of the border on 401k&#039;s?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we will always be recalculating TFSA vs RRSP for years to come. Because of the changes in future tax laws, because there is no clear winner (it always depends on your personal situations) and because they are our only two options (sort of like financing vs. leasing on cars).</p>
<p>Regardless, I will probably take the info and weight my contributions based on where i sit on the income scale, but still contribute some into both. </p>
<p>@Boko I don&#8217;t think of Tax differing so much a fraud, but rather before the TFSA it was our only option. But what i really wanted to ask you was what policies you are referring to south of the border on 401k&#8217;s?</p>
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		<title>By: Canadian Capitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/c-d-howes-take-on-tfsa-versus-rrsp/#comment-210133</link>
		<dc:creator>Canadian Capitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?p=3414#comment-210133</guid>
		<description>@Dan: Yes, a TFSA would be an ideal place to channel contributions in low income years and using it as a source of funds to contribute to a RRSP in high income years.

@boko: I don&#039;t know what&#039;s going on with 401(k)s but I don&#039;t think RRSPs are a government fraud. They are a legitimate savings vehicle and the only one we had before TFSAs came along. TFSAs are currently a great deal but who knows how the rules will be tinkered with in the future.

@Aleks: Personally, we use the TFSA to hold emergency savings but starting next year, we&#039;ll be looking to it as a retirement savings vehicle as well. The nice thing about TFSA is that it can be so flexible -- RRSPs not so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dan: Yes, a TFSA would be an ideal place to channel contributions in low income years and using it as a source of funds to contribute to a RRSP in high income years.</p>
<p>@boko: I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going on with 401(k)s but I don&#8217;t think RRSPs are a government fraud. They are a legitimate savings vehicle and the only one we had before TFSAs came along. TFSAs are currently a great deal but who knows how the rules will be tinkered with in the future.</p>
<p>@Aleks: Personally, we use the TFSA to hold emergency savings but starting next year, we&#8217;ll be looking to it as a retirement savings vehicle as well. The nice thing about TFSA is that it can be so flexible &#8212; RRSPs not so much.</p>
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